Ivo den Bieman Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 5 p in the pound, and HMRC are in for over half a million. Sorry, that one just isn't going to fly. (debts £1.9 million ) interestingly, the "consortium" are listed as only having out in ten grand since July. There are some truly staggering sums in there. This club should not exist today for conducting its affairs in this way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Right just to settle things here is the CVA Proposal http://en.calameo.com/read/000091222d965bdf92e8f Page 11Liabilities HMRC £501,604 WLC £418,412 Massone £294,000 Nixon £92,000 Employees £60,000 Trade & Expenses £547,967 So the club owes about £1.6M to central and local government/workers/community businesses or organisations; and a further £380k to Massone and Nixon. To meet these liabilities of just short of £2M, it has assets of under £100k once administration fees are deducted. An appalling situation - and sad to see the number of local individuals and businesses listed amongst the waiting creditors. So we've established that this latest 'debacle' cost the people of West Lothian, their council, and the people of the United Kingdom, over £1.5M. Yet WLC claim Livi brings benefits to West Lothian? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I'm not talking about business outside the football world, i know you have to borrow to run a business, i never did so myself but had accounts with places that allowed me time to get paid for work i'd done and then could pay said merchants. With football clubs going bust every season, bringing in this rule would prevent that from happening. If you or anyone else doesn't agree then fine, but at least try to give your reasons instead of bringing Livi into it, as it is about a rule that may help out other clubs from following our path and stop the bigger clubs operating in a way to gain an unfair advantage over others. It would also level up the playing field a bit, which can't be a bad thing. On what you saw Livi fans doing, i was at that game and didn't see that, also was at Easter road when we beat Dundee in the semi final and were in admin the day before, Dundee fans were coming past my bus giving the thumbs up and applauding, wishing us luck, so not all fans should be judged by actions of the ones who are twats, we all have our share of decent fans and a few idiots. On chants/songs, Albion were giving it to us tight on our finances but it was actually amusing as it was typical footballing banter that is as much a part of game as what happens on the park. Really, i would like to see a poll done on that one. 1. Football clubs are businesses. They don't generally operate under different sets of company laws. You cannot separate football and other businesses in this way. If borrowing in a run of the mill business is acceptable, why not in football? Why should there be a rule applied only to football clubs? 2. Football clubs going bust every season? Lets see. We have Gretna in 2008 and err, help me out here. I can't think of any others up here since Third Lanark. Why do you not want Livi discussed on a thread about Livi? Your next point kinda comes under point 1. Like it or not, there will always be bigger clubs, with bigger fanbases, and therefore bigger turnovers, which will be able to borrow more. The key is that these clubs are able to service their borrowing, like any other big business with good turnover. 3. You may not have seen it, but there was plenty of it going on. I don't object, part of being a football fan is piss-taking and ripping the opposition. Just don't greet about getting it tight when it's Livingston, and not someone else in the shit. Also i think you'll find a lot of opposition supporters ripping the piss this season, considering the toys-out-of-the-pram actions of your clubs board. Better get used to it. 4. I'd still say the majority of posters on here would have been quite happy to see you continue, had your club not acted like spoilt children when the punishment was meted out. Finally, yes every club has it's fair share of cuntish supporters. Dundee are no exception (though ours tend to vent on their own players for some reason). All of Livingston's cuntish supporters appear to be on Livi Lions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 2. Football clubs going bust every season? Lets see. We have Gretna in 2008 and err, help me out here. I can't think of any others up here since Third Lanark. Airdrieonians 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Airdrieonians Ah yes. Forgot about them So 2 in the last 40 odd years then. I was close 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow Loon Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 (edited) Just had a look at the unsecured creditors list why are Blackburn Rovers PLC due £29,000 and Shelbourne FC due £21,000, also hearts are due nearly £23,000,and middlesboro are due £13,000,WBA are due £1750 and Plymouth a £1000. I presume these are not footballing debts but if they are then the SFL should get livi to honour them as is always the case. I also see scottish power are on the list for ove £40,000. Certainly makes intresting reading. Edited September 16, 2009 by napier deltic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Right just to settle things here is the CVA Proposal http://en.calameo.com/read/000091222d965bdf92e8f Just noticed this reading back through the thread. Clearly they lied about HMRC. What happens now? Do HMRC have to settle for 5p in the pound or do they have the power to demand the lot or force Livi into liquidation? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow Loon Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Given HMRC are chasing Accrington for £308,000 of unpaid taxes am pretty sure they wont accept 5p in the pound from this lot. They have the power to demand the whole lot but it may end in them liquidating the club. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Just noticed this reading back through the thread.Clearly they lied about HMRC. What happens now? Do HMRC have to settle for 5p in the pound or do they have the power to demand the lot or force Livi into liquidation? Only one company is listed as a preferential creditor (the Redundancy Payments Office) - everybody else is unsecured 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow Loon Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Also found this creditor Daniele Brambilla employment tribunal is due £18330.51 I take it this lady sued livi and won but wont see very much of her win. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Given HMRC are chasing Accrington for £308,000 of unpaid taxes am pretty sure they wont accept 5p in the pound from this lot.They have the power to demand the whole lot but it may end in them liquidating the club. Liquidating the club doesn't seem to bother them in the case of Accrington, so I can't see why it should bother them in Livingston's case, either. I think the principle is that liquidation is prefereable to future unspecified amounts of debt to HMRC being run up, i think that was mentioned months ago on this thread. Earlier on, however, in his "summary" near the beginning of the document, McGruther does mention agreement being reached with WLC and HMRC outwith the remit of the CVA, or something like that- maybe they have cut a separate deal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Also found this creditorDaniele Brambilla employment tribunal is due £18330.51 I take it this lady sued livi and won but wont see very much of her win. I think that's the chef who left after the non-payment of wages, with the cooking utensils in the boot of his car! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Given HMRC are chasing Accrington for £308,000 of unpaid taxes am pretty sure they wont accept 5p in the pound from this lot.They have the power to demand the whole lot but it may end in them liquidating the club. One would also think Accrington Stanley will be keeping a close eye on this situation... If indeed the HMRC do wind Livi up, will this go down in history as the most retarded take over of a football club ever? I'm struggling to find one aspect of it that they haven't made a c**t of. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The ghost of Jim Morton Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Right just to settle things here is the CVA Proposal http://en.calameo.com/read/000091222d965bdf92e8f Thanks for that . Thats unbelievable stuff. They seem to owe quite a few different football clubs as well. When you see it like that it's mind blowing.. The Administrators costs are crazy.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AND180Y Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Thanks for that . Thats unbelievable stuff. They seem to owe quite a few different football clubs as well. When you see it like that it's mind blowing.. The Administrators costs are crazy.. Yep, just as the creditors thought there were no more puches to be thrown at them, along comes the administrator with a right hook to the balls!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 The Hearts debt must be for Callum Elliot. I thought I was near the end of the list but realised it's alphabetical & I was only at D! It's sickening. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartcraig Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 What i don't understand though is the likes of Dundee or Airdrie fans who have revelled in our plight, you'd have thought they of all people would know how Livi fans feel to be going through this because of the action of out of control chairmen. Stop trying to shift attention away from the absence of logic in your indefensible position by dragging us into it. There have been very few, if any, Airdrie fans doing any revelling here. Stuart 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Liquidating the club doesn't seem to bother them in the case of Accrington, so I can't see why it should bother them in Livingston's case, either. I think the principle is that liquidation is prefereable to future unspecified amounts of debt to HMRC being run up, i think that was mentioned months ago on this thread.Earlier on, however, in his "summary" near the beginning of the document, McGruther does mention agreement being reached with WLC and HMRC outwith the remit of the CVA, or something like that- maybe they have cut a separate deal. It is a bit confusing, isnt it? In the introductory paragraphs, which make for very interesting reading, it does say that the help of WLC and HMRC helped the club avoid liquidation. However, it doesnt say any agreement was reached with them and they are clearly listed as a creditor. Reading between the lines, and making a few assumptions, my conclusion would be that the HMRC were originally insisting on full payment (the CVA says the wanted "parity of treatment with the football debts") but were persuaded to let themselves be included in the CVA as an unsecured creditor along with everyone else. Im guessing this means that they wouldnt force Livy into liquidation for the full £500k, but it doesnt necessarily mean they will accept the 5p in the £ offer on the table. Can anyone explain the entry for "Issued and called up share capital"? This adds another £120k onto the amount outstanding Another thing that strikes me as worrying, is that Massone is owed nearly £300k. That means, even with 1st division income and an extra £300k in the pot, Livy still managed to rack up nearly £2m worth of debt! Even more worrying is that the £225k Livy5 paid for the club is included in all these numbers! Serious question, is an administrator not legally obliged to close a business that isnt financially viable? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow Loon Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 The SFL make sure all footballing debt is paid before the other creditors get their slice so am amazed that the clubs listed havent been paid. Also in the income bit Gate receipts were £5700 for 2 home games. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 That total amount can't just be for the last year? If it is then we are truly fecked in the 3rd!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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