Who's Going To Uni?

[xbl]

Salty, he's just looking for £100,000 government funding for his research...

Oh I hope not, I need all that government funding to pay for my trip to Spain!

[pollymac]

Thirdly, what on earth do you mean by "better people"?

You're given special powers that allow you to earn (on average) £3,400 more each year than someone without a degree

HTH

[Guest maxwell5]

So one graduate thinks that there's no working class in the UK any more, while the other thinks that graduates don't commit crimes. And they still claim that universities are good preparation for the working environment.

In the real world there's a skills shortage in the UK and a stark realism that many of the 430,000 students in the UK are discovering that employers don't want them. Never mind though - hang in at Uni Maxi. I'm sure your parents don't mind supporting you while you squander your £1,200 per annum on the fantastic social life.

Who said there was no working class in Britain?

In the last 50 years there has been something crazy like a 40% swing in the number of working class people to the number of middle class people, i can see nothing be this trend continuing.

Who said anything about me going to uni?

And my name isn't max or maxwell

I thankyou.

[Granny Danger]

Who said there was no working class in Britain?

In the last 50 years there has been something crazy like a 40% swing in the number of working class people to the number of middle class people, i can see nothing be this trend continuing.

Who said anything about me going to uni?

And my name isn't max or maxwell

I thankyou.

There are as many working class people in Britain as there have been for many years - the only difference is that somehow they have been convinced that they are middle class. OK Max?

[xbl]

I've put in my expenses claim for the conference in Madrid. Think Dicksons style of holiday, but paid for by the taxpayer. B)

[Mak]

The first part of your reply has been ignored for obvious reasons - I think you should reread your posts before spouting the same drivel as you have pasted all over the last few pages...

I stand by my view. I think that University life then work leads to better, more open-minded, more rounded people, at least in the majority of cases.

I think you develop more by doing both (few graduates will graduate then not get a job) Uni and work than simply going straight into work.

I was repeating my points in reply to your first paragraph because nothing that you said had contradicted anything that I'd said. I thought that maybe repetition would drive home the point. Hope this helps.

You still haven't explained what constitutes a "better" person. Personally, I think that how rounded or open minded an individual you are depends on the individual, not the circumstances. Certainly, you aren't a very good example of this open mindedness that you're trumpeting.

Whilst uni can undoubtedly help, it's also a very sheltered environment. You have to grow up much more quickly in full time employment. You're a good example of this, actually; your social life suffered when you had to work a 40 hour week? Seriously?

[Law Stud]

There are as many working class people in Britain as there have been for many years - the only difference is that somehow they have been convinced that they are middle class. OK Max?

Exactly. What Max doesn't realise is that many of his "middle class people" are earning less than the national average wage, topping up their income with child tax credits, and their kids are only going to school because they get EMA. He also conveniently ignores the fact that many of his "middle class people" are maxed out on their credit cards, mortgaged to the hilt and remortgaging yearly to try and stay afloat living the Labour dream. Can't blame Max for his lack of knowledge though - he's a student...

[Law Stud]

I was repeating my points in reply to your first paragraph because nothing that you said had contradicted anything that I'd said. I thought that maybe repetition would drive home the point. Hope this helps.

You still haven't explained what constitutes a "better" person. Personally, I think that how rounded or open minded an individual you are depends on the individual, not the circumstances. Certainly, you aren't a very good example of this open mindedness that you're trumpeting.

Whilst uni can undoubtedly help, it's also a very sheltered environment. You have to grow up much more quickly in full time employment. You're a good example of this, actually; your social life suffered when you had to work a 40 hour week? Seriously?

Totally agree with you. He even said that he was "too tired" after working to socialise. I hope he gets the odd shag in University cause clearly his sex life will be fucked when he finally has to start working for a living...

[Guest maxwell5]

Exactly. What Max doesn't realise is that many of his "middle class people" are earning less than the national average wage, topping up their income with child tax credits, and their kids are only going to school because they get EMA. He also conveniently ignores the fact that many of his "middle class people" are maxed out on their credit cards, mortgaged to the hilt and remortgaging yearly to try and stay afloat living the Labour dream. Can't blame Max for his lack of knowledge though - he's a student...

JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU

THE CLASS SYSTEM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INCOME

Okay

The working classes are dissappearing as the industries which provide non-skilled, partially skilled and skilled employment are shutting down. Britain is becoming a service centre which most people will now sit behind desks, which by rule of the now defunct class system would mean the working class is shrinking.

[Granny Danger]

JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU

THE CLASS SYSTEM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INCOME

Okay

The working classes are dissappearing as the industries which provide non-skilled, partially skilled and skilled employment are shutting down. Britain is becoming a service centre which most people will now sit behind desks, which by rule of the now defunct class system would mean the working class is shrinking.

So if you have to sit behind a desk to earn a (barely) living wage as opposed to standing on a production line to earn a (barely) living wage you are no longer working class? Thanks I now understand this.

PS the class system has everything to do with income. It suits the politicians, particularly on the right (and I include New Labour in this) to convince people they are no longer working class.

[Mak]

If you honestly believe that environment doesn't have as big an impact upon development than the individual, that is where I'll agree to disagree. As I stated before, once you have properly appreciated University (getting thrown out for not going tends to show me your first trip din't have this) then you'll see the huge benefits of doing BOTH University then work as opposed to JUST work. I am yet to see you rebut that point, but hey, I'm not overly bothered.

No, you're obviously not overly bothered. Hence the big, long post.

It's good that you're finding new and innovative ways in which to be patronising, though; my "not properly appreciating it" being a new one. As I believe I've already alluded to, much of the reason for me being chucked out (technically, I jumped before I was pushed) was that I did enjoy the social side a wee bit too much.

As for your point regarding university then work, I'd argue once again that it depends on circumstance. Firstly, many graduates who I've met have been so enamoured with "the uni experience" that it's actually taken them years to start behaving like adults even once they've moved into full time employment. Secondly, you're also assuming that by "going straight into employment", I'm referring solely to graduate type employment, which I'm not. I think that the experience which can be gained variously from doing an apprenticeship, joining the armed forces (which doesn't necessarily mean serving in Afghanistan for barely over the minimum wage), joining any part of the emergency services or moving abroad to work (although graduates can obviously also do this, and it forms a part of many degree courses) more than matches the experience gained by going to uni.

That's not to say that I'm dismissing uni; I wouldn't be going there if I didn't think that it had value.

As for me being an "example" it is odd that you would judge someone you have never met nor know anything about on half a dozen posts on a website thread. If that is the open-mindedness you crave then cool, maybe that isn't exactly what I emulate.

I'm judging you on what you've said in your posts, as indeed you're judging me on what I've said in my posts (for instance, "you didn't fully appreciate uni first time round"). Practice what you preach.

As for me being too tired after 40 hours, where did I write that? Truthfully though, have you worked in an Edinburgh law firm - hectic times...

You wrote it here:

...Working at least 45-50 hours a week certainly left me a lot more tired than my Uni classes, and I suffered socially as a result...

Oh well, at least you're still a superior lifeform to those that didn't go to uni.

More open-minded and more rounded individual = better individual. Without them, society would be worse off. Stated that previously, do you disagree?

No, I just don't see how joining the extreme frisbee club makes you any more open minded or well rounded than working in any of the professions that I've mentioned above. As I've already stated, I think that the individual is more important than the environment, because it's the actions of the individual which determine how much benefit is gleaned from the environment.

You just strike me as being part of "the uni bubble" of totally failing to understand that there's life outwith "the uni experience".

[H_B]

Firstly, many graduates who I've met have been so enamoured with "the uni experience" that it's actually taken them years to start behaving like adults even once they've moved into full time employment.

This is very true.

Many of our graduates dressed like tramps and continued to go out on random weekdays for their "usual" sessions, leading to being burst baws in work the day after.

Words were had.

[Law Stud]

This is very true.

Many of our graduates dressed like tramps and continued to go out on random weekdays for their "usual" sessions, leading to being burst baws in work the day after.

Words were had.

The same is true in some of the companies I've worked at, and it's one of the reasons I've come to the conclusion that many graduates are hopelessly ill prepared for the working environment - alongside the fact that they are often very poorly educated by people who failed in industry, taught out of date practices and methods, and unable to use more modern technology because their university didn't have the appropriate funds to equip themselves. Often, when a company takes on a graduate, they need to start re-training the individual - something that is becoming less and less attractive as the years go on - as we see in the current figures that prove that there are now more unemployed graduates out there than ever before.

Arab Joes debunking his debate quite seriously too when he claims that university makes him a more open minded, rounded person than someone who went straight into employment. Perhaps he doesn't quite get the irony of his prejudices.

I've got to love Max's take on the class system too. Especially the bit about how money doesn't come into it. I'm sure he'll change his opinion the minute Mummy and Daddy stop funding his lifestyle...

[Mak]

First off, I actually agree with a lot of what you posted - indeed I think a lot of it is in tandem with what I have written previously. I think your prejudice that I am essentially some "student twat" is making your argument incoherent and repetitive, and you still haven't answered my basic point (in bold above) - why go straight into work as opposed to Uni then work. I think it makes perfect sense to do both.

I don't so much think that you're a "student twat" - the archetypal student twat would be the "zany" type who takes roadsigns home from nights out, uses the word "random" a lot and so on. I don't think that student twats, in general, are any more twattish than office twats, workman twats etc., they just tend to be a lot more noticeable. What I do think is that you're coming over as a bit of a snob.

I agree with your first point, that some people get carried away with the lifestyle (I did first time round) but I'd guess that is a tiny proportion.

Your second point, however, misses my initial point - why not do these things after a few years at Uni? You say it "more than matches" the Uni experience, but surely getting both is best of all?

As you showed, I never said anything about being tired after 40 hours. Thanks for the clarification.

Your last point is arguing semantics. I can see that the law degree's going well.

Your second point (my apologies for answering in reverse order here) is fair enough, but there are a lot of professions in which a degree isn't really relevant. There are also, of course, the people who don't get the grades for uni (although, and this is an entirely separate debate, you don't really need to be that bright to get into uni). I don't think that said people, or people in said professions, are really missing out by not going to uni.

I don't really see what life experience you get at uni - outwith the academic, of course - that you can't get whilst in full time employment. Access to certain areas is easier in uni, but that's why I'm saying that it depends on the individual; many (I'd say most) students that I've known don't really take advantage of the opportunities available to them, whereas many (but not most) who go straight into full time employment have to work a bit harder for those opportunities, but then do take them.

I disagree. I think one's environment makes a huge difference. Again, it is a highly opinionated area affected solely by experiences - there is no "wrong" - I'm just telling it how I've seen it.

That's fair enough. I've tried to outline above why I disagree, although I think that I've waffled a bit. Can't be arsed changing it now, though, so you're more or less stuck with it.

[Mon_The_Fife]

I graduated from Dundee Uni today, after being bopped on the head with a wrapped up towel from some dude sitting in a chair. Good times.

[Supras]

I visited Glasgow university yesterday and really liked it, the sports facilities look really good.

That said, I was surprised that nearly everyone else who visited had their parents with them .

[Ad Lib]

I visited Glasgow university yesterday and really liked it, the sports facilities look really good.

That said, I was surprised that nearly everyone else who visited had their parents with them .

The Stevenson Building looked absolute class when we were shown round it during a Law Applicants Day.

Were you there on an Applicants' Day? None of the parents stayed for the one I was at. Those who were there just dropped their child off then buggered off.

[xbl]

That said, I was surprised that nearly everyone else who visited had their parents with them .

That was the same even way back in 2001 when I first went to open days. Why the hell do people need their parents with them? My dad gave me a few quid and gave me a lift to the train station, I didn't want my parents there, and they wanted me to make my own choice...why do people need to take their parents??

[Guest]

That was the same even way back in 2001 when I first went to open days. Why the hell do people need their parents with them? My dad gave me a few quid and gave me a lift to the train station, I didn't want my parents there, and they wanted me to make my own choice...why do people need to take their parents??

I guess most people have nosey parents who want a look around?

[Supras]

The Stevenson Building looked absolute class when we were shown round it during a Law Applicants Day.

Were you there on an Applicants' Day? None of the parents stayed for the one I was at. Those who were there just dropped their child off then buggered off.

I don't think we went around the Stevenson building but it was pointed out. The main building is a really nice inside and outside.

I think I had to write my extended essay on applicants day so couldn't go. Yesterday was the first time I had visited the university.

That was the same even way back in 2001 when I first went to open days. Why the hell do people need their parents with them? My dad gave me a few quid and gave me a lift to the train station, I didn't want my parents there, and they wanted me to make my own choice...why do people need to take their parents??

I didn't even get a lift, I had to walk to the train station . I actually arrived late (a sign of things to come) and my first thoughts were, these people are a bit old - it took me a few minutes to realise they were parents. I'm with you though - I wouldn't have wanted my parents there. I don't know why their parents were there, maybe they are hoping they would make the choice for them. Those that had their parents with them rarely asked questions and instead relied on their parents to get information.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Supras