Musketeer Gripweed Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I still wouldnt be surprised, the mere fact he looks as if he is on drugs shows what a great athlete he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Minertaur Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 He may get banned for 2 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 I hope he isn't banned, I think he's an outstanding player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetooner Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Is everyone you think is a brilliant player a druggy then Jim? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Leave Barry alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetooner Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 If this comes out to be true, whole career down the drain, all possible records taken away and rightly so. Cant stand people who need to cheat, hed probably have a great career without it but everything has to be thrown out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 If you want to get me started off on a rant, well, I'll bite! I am a self-confessed Barry Bonds fan and believer. I've seen him hit a baseball 500 ft into McCovey Cover after working the pitch count. I've seen him hit bad pitches and great pitches. I've seen him hit Randy Johnson's 99mph fastball straight past him, and I've seen him hustle and dive and celebrate with the other Giants players. But what you are referring to, I suspect, is the BALCO investigation/telephone transcripts/ anonymous (illegal) recordings. BALCO is a tax evasion case, it has nothing to do with supplying or taking illegal substances. The police are not involved, it's the IRS... Incidentally Barry Bonds was tested for steroids (including THG) last Friday, but did that get any coverage? I assume you say the same about about Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, et al? Look, I don't know whether Barry Bonds uses designer steroids or not. He certainly uses any number of protein based substances, just as any athlete does. But the guys says he doesn't, has never, and will never. I take him at his word. Either way, he's the greatest player of his generation by a mile - his numbers are superior to Albert Pujols as much as Pujols is superior to Craig Counsell. What I do have a problem with is guys like Gary Sheffield (or even worse Colorado relief pitchers with a career 8.00 ERA) crying to tabloid press about Barry, simply because Barry Bonds is Barry Bonds. I also have a problem with people who condemn Barry Bonds, Giambi and Sheffield who patently don't know what steroids actually do (i.e Washington Post/San Francisco Chronicle opinion piece writers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetooner Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 The latest that has came out *may be false btw* is that a tape including what has been confirmed as his ex trainer say that Bonds took a masked steroid which gave negative tests in 2003. It also stated that Bonds was told 2 weeks in advance whether or not he was going to be tested. That has been refuted by MLB as impossible, but it is something that a TV programme highlighted last year, that the US doping committee has a list of players they are going to test and when made up weeks in advance, and ofcourse it is possible star players can find out when they are due. I have no doubt that bonds is a class player, and steroid use probably wont affect the fact that he has hit so much HRs, however there has to be DOUBT that if he did take the steroids/other banned substances, not 1 of his home runs can be taken seriously as proper records. And yes, i would say the same about every single performer in the world, as it gives him/them an unfair advantage over others. Just to also point out, the fact he took a drug test last week was well publicised, as much so as info about this "tape". However the claims are from 2003. So, in conclusion, if it is found he is guilty of taking the steroids (just about impossible now, unless he admits it/ others admit it) Then his whole career has to be filed under a questionable fodler, with Cheat marked on top of it. Thats from a total neutral where bonds is concerned, hes a great player who deserves all the respect he deserves, but maybe you are a little blinkered by the fact hes a hero of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Fair enough. I can accept that, but I still think Bonds is singled out because he's the best. It's funny, because unless something has changed, the players who identified Anderson's voice were both anonymously identified. Also, half of the phone call is scrambled and can't be understood. There are several other unidentified voices and some of it doesn't make any sense. It's completely inadmissable as evidence in court, and it's bizarre how it's taken two years to reach the public. I think the Bonds haters would have to admit that it's mightily weak at best. I would also argue that if you have a suspicion over Bonds, and therefore put an asterix on his records, then you'd have to do that for everyone currently playing, including the great pitchers like Johnson, Schilling et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetooner Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 I do also agree with that Jim, anywhere in the world unless there are foolproof/excellent drug testing then you cant say for sure. Its sad when things have came to this, and i think american sports/drug testing has a lot to get its arse in gear. The programme i mentioned *cant remember name of it, was an American football one* was slaughtered because it apparently brought out a lot of hot topics that the NFL wanted kept quiet. *was only a 6 show series but had lots of marital programmes, drugs taking, and basically showed that lots of NFL players are nasty people. People had said it was overexaggerating the problems, but its teh best way to show them up. As i said it had a whole theme of drugs taking. UIt had who took drugs to help him get over injuries, and it helped a lot, and he had persuaded someone who was older/getting over an injury to try it once. They had got a letter from their agents telling them who was being tested, and they found they werent being tested so thought was ok. THe club traded 2 that were being tested or something like that, so 1 of them ended up being tested and caught, and also showed up one of the ways that the players went to to get out of drugs test, he found out he was being tested, had taken some drugs so was gonna get found out etc. He then went to a "dr" and had a procedure done to insert someone else's urine to his bladder, went and took the test and was found negative. I dont know if thats possible, but it shows there are many ways of getting out of the testing, and we all know what happened with Rio..... anyway a long story to get my point across, but the MLB have admitted that the 1 thing that has to change is their drug testing procedures and to take a more firm stance on the whole thing. As i said its a shame people are going to have their careers possibly questioned because of this, and its mostly the organisers fault, but if it does come out he was given the steroids...... bang end of a great record. p.s. even if he did take the steroids, im sure he could still hit the ball into mccovey cove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketheheadlesschicken Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Steroids have no affect on bat speed, which is Bonds main weapon. Bonds is hated because of his media persona and, as a result, many believe he is or was taking steroids. If Bonds was as well liked in the media as Derek Jeter or Mark McGwire then there wouldn't be as much of a fuss. McGwire, in fact, admitted taking certain supplements during his 70 HR season. Canseco and Caminiti took steroids and I doubt they were the only ones. Some people talk as if Bonds is the only person who could be taking steroids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetooner Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 How the steroids can help is with the building up of muscle, like any other sport the recovery time is less, so training can be done more often/higher intensity etc etc. Basically will make him more powerful. As i said before Bonds is definitely not the only one, and is a great player without taking steroids if he even did do, but as long as there is that doubt, his records are tarnished, and noone can argue against that. As i said its a shame this has happened, but it has. However he will still be a "Hero" to people, shown by the fact Sosa is, even though he was found to definitely be cheating 1 time, so how can you be sure he never did before? yet he is still a hero, something i cant stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketheheadlesschicken Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 How the steroids can help is with the building up of muscle, like any other sport the recovery time is less, so training can be done more often/higher intensity etc etc. Basically will make him more powerful. Too much bulk will lessen his bat speed. Steroids don't help with technique, hand-eye co-ordination and bat speed. When people are throwing a ball up to 100 miles per hour, you don't need a lot of power to send it 400 feet away. There's an excellent article on Bonds' training regime. I'll try and find it. However he will still be a "Hero" to people Why shouldn't he be a hero? He's the greatest player of his generation and one of the greatest players of all time. He's never been found guilty yet you seem happy to go with rumour and hearsay. There's a good article about Bonds here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiG Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...sea/3750588.stm Looks like he has admitted it now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Cocaine? I really wish Uefa or Fifa or WADA or whoever it conducts these tests and is responsible for the charges would stop interfering in people's personal lives and morality. Cocaine is a social drug, it's a personal thing, and it isn't performance enhancing. It's nonsensical to give him a two year ban (as is threatened) whilst people get shorter suspensions for testing positive for other substances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetooner Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Too much bulk will lessen his bat speed. Are you saying he isnt a bulky guy?????? have you actually watched any baseball? Hes huge. Why shouldn't he be a hero? He's the greatest player of his generation and one of the greatest players of all time. He's never been found guilty yet you seem happy to go with rumour and hearsay. Where in my posts did i say he was guilty? i made sure i said IF he is found guilty. I also said he is a great player etc etc. What you cant argue with is if he is taking performance enhancing drugs, then he, along with everyone else that does, is a cheat. Maybe he onyl took them 1 time etc, but he is still a cheat. *yet again im not saying he HAS taken them just IF he took them.* All i was doing in pointing this out was banter with Jim about his favourite player, and also taking up a valid point on drug testing. Maybe if you learn to read peoples posts properly and understand the word IF youd be able to win the arguement. As to the footballer, i agree with Jim, Cocaine although illegal is not performance enhancing, its up to the individual involved whether he takes it or not, and if it is applicable the police. Yes hes not a good role model, but its supposed to be private life, and getting a 2 year ban is outrageous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiG Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 They ban, if it is enforced, will be about 6 months I hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketheheadlesschicken Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Where in my posts did i say he was guilty? i made sure i said IF he is found guilty. In your last post you said, As i said before Bonds is definitely not the only oneHowever he will still be a "Hero" to people From that, I inferred that you believe he is guilty. There were no "ifs" in those. Bonds is definitely not the only one to what? And it seems that you are suggesting it'd be wrong for people to see him as a hero because of all the speculation. What you cant argue with is if he is taking performance enhancing drugs, then he, along with everyone else that does, is a cheat. Maybe he onyl took them 1 time etc, but he is still a cheat. Why should there be an argument? There's no evidence that he has been taking anything. You could make up a whole range of arguments about people by sticking the words "what if" in. What if Hank Aaron had cheated in some way? What if black players were allowed to play when Babe Ruth was playing? Maybe we should have asterisks next to every players record just because there could be a "what if"? Why is it only Bonds that the media are speculating about? Why not anyone else? Maybe if you learn to read peoples posts properly and understand the word IF youd be able to win the arguement. Maybe if you made your points a bit clearer, I'd understand them better. I wasn't posting to try and "win" anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetooner Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 In your last post you said,From that, I inferred that you believe he is guilty. There were no "ifs" in those. Bonds is definitely not the only one to what? And it seems that you are suggesting it'd be wrong for people to see him as a hero because of all the speculation. Why should there be an argument? There's no evidence that he has been taking anything. You could make up a whole range of arguments about people by sticking the words "what if" in. What if Hank Aaron had cheated in some way? What if black players were allowed to play when Babe Ruth was playing? Maybe we should have asterisks next to every players record just because there could be a "what if"? Why is it only Bonds that the media are speculating about? Why not anyone else? Maybe if you made your points a bit clearer, I'd understand them better. I wasn't posting to try and "win" anything. Sorry was replying to your last post where you said i was only singleing him out, if you had looked back i had said everything IF he was proven to be guilty. if that happens there is no speculation any more, and he did take them. If that happens, then you have to question his whole career, and none of his records can stand, because he would have been cheating, and as i said if that is proven then you cant argue with the point. Then i do beleive for people to see him as a hero would be wrong. As for the media only having a go at Barry, thats crap. Hank Aaron has NEVER got the recognition he deserves, noone ever mentions him first when it comes to best players, even tho he is the record holder *for now* in home runs, as well as having magnificent other batting stats and even in the field he was excellent. I feel that Bonds himself os overhyped to a point. Yes he had a great season again, and all the walks spoiled what could have been a phenomenal record breaking season, but other than 1 game against Atlanta he was pretty poor, and they pitched 90% of the time to him, including striking him out about 4 times in only 6 or 7 games. Everything you hear is Bonds Bonds Bonds, when there are some Excellent young hitters/pitchers who dont get the coverage they deserve. (Pujols gets very little coverage, yet only 2 players have ever hit more HRs in their first 4 years of ML, and Pujols is a lot more of a threat to hit you out of any part of the park, whereas Bonds is majorly a pull hitter.) Anyway gotta do some work now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eric Tait Spurts Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 ...anyway, back to football.... This stuff with Mutu is just the tip of the iceberg. Coke's been rife in team sports in Britain for years and it's only just starting to be an issue now. There's that 21yo cricketer that's just been caught. I know of a player that turned down a chance to play for England at rugby because he knew he'd be tested. There's also an international player at a Glasgow club that wouldn't be too keen on peeing in a cup.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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