Pink Freud Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Philanthropic. Besides, Iceland is recovering at quite a rate. Something like 3 times the quarterly growth figures of most Eurozone countries IIRC. It's the EURO I tells ya! It's because the Scots hate them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 As Montenegro was part of a rump Yugoslavia at the time, it's highly disingenuous to claim that "Montenegrin forces joined their Serbian counterparts..." as both would have been regarded as "Yugoslavs" until the name was dropped soon after the fall of Milosevic. Your choice of words suggest that an independent Montengrin army voluntarily joined Serbia, which was not the case at all. Can we take a 'collective responsibility' view then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 If we're talking about the JNA, yes. If we're talking about murky paramilitary forces, brilliant at terrorising and killing unarmed women and children but not so good at, er, actual military combat, tacitly supported by Milosevic, such as Arkan's "Tigers", no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 If we're talking about the JNA, yes. If we're talking about murky paramilitary forces, brilliant at terrorising and killing unarmed women and children but not so good at, er, actual military combat, tacitly supported by Milosevic, such as Arkan's "Tigers", no. And the behaviour of these murky paramilitaries was somehow invisible to Montenegrin politicians and/or citizens for quite a few years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 If you have evidence of widespread Montengrin paramilitary involvement in 1991-5 or in the Kosovo crisis of 1999, post it. Most on line Scottish Labour followers have been googling desperately to find said evidence since this story broke, to little avail. I've already stated that no constituent republic in the former Yugoslavia had clean hands. Montenegrin paramilitaries were involved in the shelling of Dubrovnik. Individual Montenegrin paramilitaries committed atrocities during 1991-95 and are either in jail or in the process of being brought to book. Dreadful those these acts were, Montenegrins in no way participated in "ethnic cleansing" to the extent of elements of the JNA, the Serb paramilitaries, or Croat/Bosnian formations. Along with Slovenia and Macedonia, Montenegro emerged from the dreadful events of the 1990s relatively unscathed. However, the criminality of these individuals has precisely zero to do with Montengrin independence, peacefully and democratically achieved, in 2006. Just in the same way that two world wars and the other utterly irrelevant and misleading historical processes emitted in Gray's projectile-verbal-diahorrea on the 23rd December, are utterly irrelevant to the debate at hand. It was his baw-faced attempt to present a noxious cocktail of deliberate misinterpretation, historical illiteracy and half truth, as authoritative, the utterly mendacious implicit link between Scots nationalism as practiced by the SNP, and the murderous ethnic nationalisms of the Balkans, that people have been taking him to task for. Either that, or he's just fucking stupid and doesn't actually know what he's talking about, thereby embarrassing himself and his party in the process, and pissing off a small country he has no particular need to piss off. You decide. (BTW, I'm no particular fan of the SNP either.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Gray should be forced to read through todays posts about the break up of Yugoslavia. If he isn't fucking sorry for talking shite about Montebloodynegro then he will be at the wrist slashing stage after reading all that crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Too many words and not enough pictures? Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Too many words and not enough pictures? Sorry about that. Sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOGI IS GOD Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 with respect, what attracts you to voting for Labour? I've become a bit disillusioned with the SNP and nationalism in general, though I think Alex Salmond is a brilliant politician. I used to be a member of the Scottish Socialist Party but I'm starting to think that the overall desire in Scotland for nationalism just isn't great enough to justify constitutional independence. That being said, I believe in changing the UK from a consitutional monarchy to a democratic republic. Bringing forth this change will require a united effort between British countries, I doubt it will happen in my lifetime though. Also, Miliband has given me some confidence in a resurgence of the left of centre elements of the Labour party. When I vote I tend to vote for the party that has the best chance of fighting inequality and promoting internationalism, Labour seem to have the best chance of doing that in my generation. I accept there are huge deficiencies in the line of argument, my vote for Labour isn't done whilst ignorant of the massive problems in the party. It's a vote out of cynical realism to be honest, I'd like to be proved wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I've become a bit disillusioned with the SNP and nationalism in general, though I think Alex Salmond is a brilliant politician. I used to be a member of the Scottish Socialist Party but I'm starting to think that the overall desire in Scotland for nationalism just isn't great enough to justify constitutional independence. That being said, I believe in changing the UK from a consitutional monarchy to a democratic republic. Bringing forth this change will require a united effort between British countries, I doubt it will happen in my lifetime though. Also, Miliband has given me some confidence in a resurgence of the left of centre elements of the Labour party. When I vote I tend to vote for the party that has the best chance of fighting inequality and promoting internationalism, Labour seem to have the best chance of doing that in my generation. I accept there are huge deficiencies in the line of argument, my vote for Labour isn't done whilst ignorant of the massive problems in the party. It's a vote out of cynical realism to be honest, I'd like to be proved wrong. Most (if not all) those issues are Westminster issues. Trying to fathom why someone would vote Scottish Labour in the Holyrood elections is even more difficult than working out why they'd vote Labour in a GE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Too many words and not enough pictures? Sorry about that. You are one letter too many at the end of your avatar pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 If you have evidence of widespread Montengrin paramilitary involvement in 1991-5 or in the Kosovo crisis of 1999, post it. Most on line Scottish Labour followers have been googling desperately to find said evidence since this story broke, to little avail. I'm more interested in what the Montenegrin lassie had to say about her country's involvement than the Labour/SNP spat that brought the subject to our attention. She was 'economical with the truth', shall we say. A line appears to be have drawn between Serbia and Montenegro at this point (courtesy of Wikipedia) In 1996, Milo Đukanović's government severed ties between Montenegro and the Serbian regime but before that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 I'm more interested in what the Montenegrin lassie had to say about her country's involvement than the Labour/SNP spat that brought the subject to our attention. She was 'economical with the truth', shall we say. A line appears to be have drawn between Serbia and Montenegro at this point (courtesy of Wikipedia) but before that... ...is nothing you're inclined to post? Do you think gray was right to say what he said? I can't multiquote very well on a phone, but it appears that gray is being defended to the hilt by a certain couple of posters, without any actual, you know, evidence being quoted. Also, salmond is also being equally criticised by the same for his replies on Montenegro, despite not personally saying a single thing on the subject! Very odd. Have BBC Scotland bothered to cover the story yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I'm more interested in what the Montenegrin lassie had to say about her country's involvement than the Labour/SNP spat that brought the subject to our attention. She was 'economical with the truth', shall we say. A line appears to be have drawn between Serbia and Montenegro at this point (courtesy of Wikipedia) but before that... I really hope that it's "Scottish" Labour's strategy to try and rubbish the credibility / interpretation of the Montenegrin diplomat, as you are trying to do. That would be hilarious. There is nothing broadly wrong with what she said. Still, carry on being the only person in Scotland who thinks Iain Gray is spot on on this one, if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 There is nothing broadly wrong with what she said. Still, carry on being the only person in Scotland who thinks Iain Gray is spot on on this one, if you like. False dichotomy. As I've said I'm not particularly interested in the Labour/SNP spat and believe both their statements to be simplistic in the extreme. The Montenegrin diplomat's statement are, in themselves, worthy of scrutiny outwith any squabble in Scotland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 So was iain gray right to criticise? And were labour right to laugh at his ethnic cleansing jibes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 So was iain gray right to criticise? And were labour right to laugh at his ethnic cleansing jibes? What bit of "I'm not interested" don't you get? I haven't heard (and only briefly read) either Iain Gray/Labour or Alex Salmond/SNP on this particular issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 False dichotomy. As I've said I'm not particularly interested in the Labour/SNP spat and believe both their statements to be simplistic in the extreme. The Montenegrin diplomat's statement are, in themselves, worthy of scrutiny outwith any squabble in Scotland Where has she been "economical with the truth", then, as you have suggested? Montenegrin independence has diddly squat to do with individual Montenegrins involvement in the conflicts of 1991-95. And she was right to claim that Montenegro emerged largely unscathed from the events of the 1990s. Given that she only intervened in the context of both politicians "simplistic" remarks, it's hard to see how you can separate the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 Probably the bit where you posted repeatedly on the issue. You seem to be quick to criticise salmonds statements, despite claiming to not be interested, and significantly, him not actually making any such statements at all. Furthermore, you keep hinting about Montenegro being involved in ethnic cleansing, without actually posting anything. If you're not interested, you hide it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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