Hillsborough debate

[Ivo den Bieman]

How exactly does one campaign for anything without being "in your face"?

 

presumably by writing lots of letters in green ink to the MP and the local newspaper, on pages torn out of a school jotter.

 

then again that in itself- actually writing words on a page- might be seen as a bit aggressive.

 

It's a toughie.

[pandarilla]

As far as I can see they've always carried themselves with dignity. Bit cheesy at times maybe but actually we're taking about kids dying here. How much of a dick do you need to be to get hung up on this?

There are fucking dozens of news items that get saturation coverage (I'm thinking royal births n shit) but this story? Not a chance.

[Miguel Sanchez]

Over the course of yesterday I had been thinking about this thread and what I wanted to say about it. When I came in and read it I was afforded a chance to reflect on that, having seen different views from posters here which made the whole thing - specifically my perception of it in the time I've been alive and conscious of the event and the repercussions of it - which generally made sense to me and seemed reasonable.

There's lots of things which influence my perception of Hillsborough which might vary from others here and elsewhere. It happened before I was born. It happened under a government with football-specific policies I've never lived under. It involved footballing circumstances which haven't existed in my lifetime. Unlike previous disasters like Ibrox it was broadcast in much greater detail on TV, making it much more graphic and impactful to the people who saw it and see it now. The subsequent media coverage of it heightened emotions of people involved in it on all sides.

With all of this in consideration, I've never really had any opinion of it which suspected any truth in the official version of events. Watching video of it like those posted in this thread is clear enough. With the new, genuine official reports which have come out over the years the cause is quite obvious again. Completely inept policing and management of the situation, coupled with a facility which had previously proven unsuitable for purpose. To me that explains the anger that's lingers in the decades since. Not the circumstances which could have been understood if not excused, but the reaction to it which was an abhorrent thing for the responsible people to do.

With the assorted inquests and campaigns and displays which have been more prominent in the last view years, I've never really paid much attention to it as a result of all of the above. To me, it happened, the reason it happened was obvious, the reaction to it was a web of self-preserving lies, and there was an ongoing movement by those who lost family and friends on that day to have some sort of official recognition of this. Yesterday, and today, I saw the extent to which that vindication was required by the people involved. And not knowing what it's like to be in that situation, having this realised by P&B, fine. I watched, and that was that.

Yesterday when I was watching the telly before going to work they were interviewing a police officer who was at Hillsborough that day. She cried as she described - with CCTV of it overlaid - the screams of a ten year old boy she was trying to pull out of the crush. He died. This morning, the father of one of the victims was on, sharing his disgust at the police who were all walking about doing nothing and pulling supporters out of the empty pens they were trying to get into to avoid the crowd.

Outside the court (or wherever it was) yesterday when you had a group of them on the steps, with scarves in the air singing You'll Never Walk Alone, that to me summed up why people can somehow manage to be unsypmathetic towards people who had relatives killed by negligence and then seen them blamed for it over the following decades. At this, the moment of absolute irreversible vindication, there's a full-on public display of celebration. There's one woman in the crowd jabbing her finger in the air to every word like it's the last song at a wedding. The release of emotions have built up and festered over so long is understandable, a collective sense of injustice which manifests itself in such flagrant self-interest isn't something which can easily make an outside observer feel sympathetic to their cause.

I hope that the subsequent repercussions are wide-ranging and appropriate. I hope the survivors, the people who were there that day accused of attacking police, the victims' families, I hope they all get appropriate compensation. They deserve it. I hope too that sufficient changes are made to the systems which allowed this culture to exist and do the damage it did (though like DA Baracus am far too cynical to believe it can extend to modern day football and its fans). I also think however that the fervour of the people involved and the injustice which has persisted for so long has shifted the focus of what these enquiries and inquests should be about - the victims - and become lost in a frenzy of frequent and ever increasingly hysteric displays of public action.

I should add, independent of any campaigner's action, the media coverage of it is truly nauseating and contributes to this effect. The aforementioned programme where I saw the police officer talking, you've got Dan Walker presenting it live from an empty cathedral at half seven in the morning talking in this grave voice. It just seems inappropriate to me, and contributes to the sense that this is something is is seen as a cause for celebration rather than justification. I also won't call you a fascist if you think what I've said is wrong.

[Jambomo]

Over the course of yesterday I had been thinking about this thread and what I wanted to say about it. When I came in and read it I was afforded a chance to reflect on that, having seen different views from posters here which made the whole thing - specifically my perception of it in the time I've been alive and conscious of the event and the repercussions of it - which generally made sense to me and seemed reasonable.

There's lots of things which influence my perception of Hillsborough which might vary from others here and elsewhere. It happened before I was born. It happened under a government with football-specific policies I've never lived under. It involved footballing circumstances which haven't existed in my lifetime. Unlike previous disasters like Ibrox it was broadcast in much greater detail on TV, making it much more graphic and impactful to the people who saw it and see it now. The subsequent media coverage of it heightened emotions of people involved in it on all sides.

With all of this in consideration, I've never really had any opinion of it which suspected any truth in the official version of events. Watching video of it like those posted in this thread is clear enough. With the new, genuine official reports which have come out over the years the cause is quite obvious again. Completely inept policing and management of the situation, coupled with a facility which had previously proven unsuitable for purpose. To me that explains the anger that's lingers in the decades since. Not the circumstances which could have been understood if not excused, but the reaction to it which was an abhorrent thing for the responsible people to do.

With the assorted inquests and campaigns and displays which have been more prominent in the last view years, I've never really paid much attention to it as a result of all of the above. To me, it happened, the reason it happened was obvious, the reaction to it was a web of self-preserving lies, and there was an ongoing movement by those who lost family and friends on that day to have some sort of official recognition of this. Yesterday, and today, I saw the extent to which that vindication was required by the people involved. And not knowing what it's like to be in that situation, having this realised by P&B, fine. I watched, and that was that.

Yesterday when I was watching the telly before going to work they were interviewing a police officer who was at Hillsborough that day. She cried as she described - with CCTV of it overlaid - the screams of a ten year old boy she was trying to pull out of the crush. He died. This morning, the father of one of the victims was on, sharing his disgust at the police who were all walking about doing nothing and pulling supporters out of the empty pens they were trying to get into to avoid the crowd.

Outside the court (or wherever it was) yesterday when you had a group of them on the steps, with scarves in the air singing You'll Never Walk Alone, that to me summed up why people can somehow manage to be unsypmathetic towards people who had relatives killed by negligence and then seen them blamed for it over the following decades. At this, the moment of absolute irreversible vindication, there's a full-on public display of celebration. There's one woman in the crowd jabbing her finger in the air to every word like it's the last song at a wedding. The release of emotions have built up and festered over so long is understandable, a collective sense of injustice which manifests itself in such flagrant self-interest isn't something which can easily make an outside observer feel sympathetic to their cause.

I hope that the subsequent repercussions are wide-ranging and appropriate. I hope the survivors, the people who were there that day accused of attacking police, the victims' families, I hope they all get appropriate compensation. They deserve it. I hope too that sufficient changes are made to the systems which allowed this culture to exist and do the damage it did (though like DA Baracus am far too cynical to believe it can extend to modern day football and its fans). I also think however that the fervour of the people involved and the injustice which has persisted for so long has shifted the focus of what these enquiries and inquests should be about - the victims - and become lost in a frenzy of frequent and ever increasingly hysteric displays of public action.

I should add, independent of any campaigner's action, the media coverage of it is truly nauseating and contributes to this effect. The aforementioned programme where I saw the police officer talking, you've got Dan Walker presenting it live from an empty cathedral at half seven in the morning talking in this grave voice. It just seems inappropriate to me, and contributes to the sense that this is something is is seen as a cause for celebration rather than justification. I also won't call you a fascist if you think what I've said is wrong.

I think that is an excellent post. I totally agree with it.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Jambomo

[pandarilla]

Very thoughtful and considered post.

On the media overload point, I think the same can be applied to loads of different events - and in my view is therefore not a Hillsborough thing.

In terms of individual police actions, I've seen quite a few cases where relatives have been full of praise for individual officers.

I also don't get the hatred for the rendition of 'you'll never walk along'. That song is much, much bigger than a football song. It's become something much more spiritual. The spirit of that group of people is as strong as any possibly could be. They sung a song. Why the fuss?

[Miguel Sanchez]

Very thoughtful and considered post.

On the media overload point, I think the same can be applied to loads of different events - and in my view is therefore not a Hillsborough thing.

In terms of individual police actions, I've seen quite a few cases where relatives have been full of praise for individual officers.

I also don't get the hatred for the rendition of 'you'll never walk along'. That song is much, much bigger than a football song. It's become something much more spiritual. The spirit of that group of people is as strong as any possibly could be. They sung a song. Why the fuss?

A combination of the factors I mentioned already, probably. I live in Glasgow. To me, You'll Never Walk Alone is a football song. Particularly with regard to Liverpool FC it's a song which is held as some sort of unique. transcendent joining together of a people... followed by 90 minutes of absolute silence. In that regard it feels more like a resigned obligation that they go through on a regular basis because it's just what they do.

The people after the verdict delivery the other day, they're holding up Liverpool scarves as they're singing. It's something which is to entwined with the football club for me to think it something spontaneous or genuine.

I would add though that whatever cultural or social influences the song has are usurped by things similar to the media coverage I mentioned. Shite like that Celtic statement certainly cheapens any genuine symbolic meaning behind the song, regardless of how worthless their input actually is (and it really, really is).

[pandarilla]

Some folk will always take things too far, over the top etc. Like you pointed out I can definitely understand how things like that bristle with people. But that shouldn't take away from the bigger point of what's happening.

It's like a big celebrity death. The overreaction on social media can sometimes make me hate the poor bugger that's deid.

There's a good wee bt sport documentary about the song. I think Hillsborough changed that song in relation to Liverpool as a city. It pulled people together in the darkest of times and was played at most of the funerals.

Edited April 28, 2016 by pandarilla

[Mortar Bored]

Got to laugh at people calling me thick for having a different opinion than them. How very fascist of you

Maybe, just maybe, the reason that "justice" has been eventually started to be seen is precisely because the families have been so vocal and "in your face"?

The establishment had their enquiry 26 years ago in the Taylor report as well as the original inquests, it's simply because the families and their supporters refused to be silent and "media whored" as you call it, that we have seen the recent judgement of unlawful killing.

Now, if their publicity offends you a great deal, I'd suggest switching channels, skimming past reports in newspapers & not commenting on forums as a way of ignoring this big news.

[Mortar Bored]

Every so often there's a thread on P&B that goes beyond the joking and sarky remarks and even the usual level of poor taste and becomes something more toxic. Sadly this is such a thread.

Posters still trying to blame the fans after their exoneration or the families for keeping this fight in the public eye when it was that very tactic that led to the present outcome are fairly despicable.

This, exactly this!

[AyrshireTon]

A combination of the factors I mentioned already, probably. I live in Glasgow. To me, You'll Never Walk Alone is a football song.

Yet think of what it was written for in the original musical "Carousel" - a lament to a guy who dies in a bungled attempt at mugging someone.

You have to wonder why they (Celtic & Liverpool) chose it?

[ayrmad]

Yet think of what it was written for in the original musical "Carousel" - a lament to a guy who dies in a bungled attempt at mugging someone.

You have to wonder why they (Celtic & Liverpool) chose it?

It was sung at lots of grounds back in the day, it's the crap between the ugly sisters that rendered it useless to the other fanbases in Scotland..

[ballymoneyyin]

thereisalight, given the fact that this made national press on the day of the disaster, the police and governing bodies used national press to label the fans as the culprits of the disaster, do you not think its apt to have the campaign as one in the national press?

 

 

The football club, and its supporters naturally gave support to the families, which as a result will come up on TV screens because of the scale of LFC and the league they play in.

 

Although I do understand why you might think the way you do, when you take into account these things above and the fact that none of the victims families are likely to pursue a job on TV after all of this, I would be sure this was all done for the correct reasons.

 

If a family member of mine died at a football match in these circumstances, and the evidence that was shown in the likes of  Anne Williams and Margaret Aspinal's cases, and 15 year old boy's dead bodies were being tested for alcohol in their bloodstream, when the Sun newspaper and Kelvin Mackenzie accused fans of pickpocketing victims and urinating on emergency services that were trying to help and when there was a clear cover up, I'd be looking at getting national recognition for the injustice that occurred on that day. 

 

It isn't just a victory for these families either, I think its much more than that. 

[Theo Snelders]

thereisalight, given the fact that this made national press on the day of the disaster, the police and governing bodies used national press to label the fans as the culprits of the disaster, do you not think its apt to have the campaign as one in the national press?

 

 

The football club, and its supporters naturally gave support to the families, which as a result will come up on TV screens because of the scale of LFC and the league they play in.

 

Although I do understand why you might think the way you do, when you take into account these things above and the fact that none of the victims families are likely to pursue a job on TV after all of this, I would be sure this was all done for the correct reasons.

 

If a family member of mine died at a football match in these circumstances, and the evidence that was shown in the likes of  Anne Williams and Margaret Aspinal's cases, and 15 year old boy's dead bodies were being tested for alcohol in their bloodstream, when the Sun newspaper and Kelvin Mackenzie accused fans of pickpocketing victims and urinating on emergency services that were trying to help and when there was a clear cover up, I'd be looking at getting national recognition for the injustice that occurred on that day. 

 

It isn't just a victory for these families either, I think its much more than that. 

 

Thank you for that.

I'm not sure I would have had the mental fortitude the families and survivors have shown.

[mjw]

It was sung at lots of grounds back in the day, it's the crap between the ugly sisters that rendered it useless to the other fanbases in Scotland..

There's a video of Motherwell fans singing it when we won the first division back in the eighties.

It wouldn't get sung now.

[BIGQ FAE KDY]

The biggest cover up in british criminal history was a national scandal.The families and the city of liverpool won a great victory not just for themselves but for everyone.Everton today had margaret aspinall and some other family members at their game today and gave them a magnificent reception to show their support.Clubs up and down england showed their support aswell which was great to see.Regarding YOU`LL NEVER WALK ALONE man utd fans were the first to sing it not liverpool or celtic.JFT 96

[Arbroathlegend36-0]

With living in Sheffield I've been speaking to people about the day and one conversation I had I found interesting. He said that on local news a couple of weeks before the game they felt that something terrible would happen on the day because of what had happened at the previous semi final the year before. Think he said it was Manchester United that was the club and the same happend with people getting squashed and even that day the police opened the gate to let the fans in. But also Liverpool was the biggest team in England at that time and it was pretty unusual of them only getting 1 stand of the ground while forest got the other 3 which he thought at the time was completely bizarre and bonkers.

I do agree the police were to blame and that's fully down to David Duckenfield. This was Duckenfield first match as match commander and there was no meeting with fellow officers before the match as he didn't see the point of it and that was his biggest mistake. Unfortunately officers that worked that day are now living in fear of getting prosecuted even though they only knew how to deal with the situation the best they could. I know someone who is scared of being sent down because they maybe getting prosecuted for helping but maybe not seen helping enough on the day which I found disgusting because Duckenfield is to blame for all this because he didn't have back up plans if something went wrong on the day it's because he didn't want to brief the officers before the match. The police have had emergency meetings in Sheffield these past few days and to to be honest it not looking good for South Yorkshire police with this and also the stuff that's been happening in Rotherham. There could be jobs lost because of this and this includes my wife's job so it's not looking good for Sheffield just now.

[HibeeJibee]

Liverpool was the biggest team in England at that time and it was pretty unusual of them only getting 1 stand of the ground while forest got the other 3 which he thought at the time was completely bizarre and bonkers.

 

It appears to have been more subtle than this. Nottingham Forest were allocated about 30,000 tickets and Liverpool about 25,000.

 

Each received 1 side and 1 end, chosen to avoid clashes on the travel routes. It had only just sold out (Wikipedia suggests only the day before). Unless you go with the 'ticketless fans' theory - which Taylor, the independent panel and inquest didn't - then size of support isn't a factor anyway: had people been able to access their appropriate section safely, and the central pens not over-filled, disaster would have been avoided.

 

 

What caused the disaster was the fact Liverpool's stands were accessed from 1 street - Forest's had 2 - and had many fewer turnstiles available. Plus there were different turnstiles for each area - the North side (seats), the West upper (seats) and West lower (terrace).

 

These factors - coupled with the bad lay-out, planning and decision-making - caused the build-up of supporters and potential crush outside. Due to that they chose to open an exit gate, and having not closed the access into the centre of the West lower caused the crush inside - there were more people in the central pens than could safely be accommodated, but the side pens were actually sparsely filled.

 

 

At various points decisions could and should have been made differently, but unlimited numbers of Liverpool fans weren't intended for the one end. It was discussed a page or two back but had the allocations simply been the other way around it could as easily have been Forest fans killed. This doesn't seem to be a new conclusion - Taylor stated in his report:

 

I do not consider choice of ends was causative of the disaster. Had it been reversed, the disaster could well have occurred in a similar manner but to Nottingham supporters

Edited April 30, 2016 by HibeeJibee

[The Ginger Prince]

There's a video of Motherwell fans singing it when we won the first division back in the eighties.

It wouldn't get sung now.

Hibs fans used to sing it in the 80's/90's as well apparently.

[Dindeleux]

I remember Simply the Best getting played at Rugby Park as recently as 20 years ago before everyone started to get all weepy about its connections.

[NewBlue]

I have watched a few Youtube vidoes about this and think this one is an excellent summary. It really sums up the mistakes Duckenfield admitted to making:

 

 

I also have to say it is worth looking through the HIP report. I have only read the first four chapters so far but it is really shocking to see all of the mistakes that were made in the lead up to that day - it really was an accident waiting to happen. It is especially shocking to see the fact that just about everyone knew there were problems with that stadium and they were ignored. The fire service even submitted a 5 page list of safety concerns that were never addressed.