Hillsborough debate

[Theo Snelders]

The majority couldn't stop or go back because a minority at the back continued to try to get in by pushing. There has to be a starting point. Badly handled thereafter, but it was triggered by behaviour or an incident.

As is completely natural. They had no idea what was going on at the front. As is typical with most crowd crushing deaths.

(Go on, look it up. I dare you. The Who concert might be a good place to start. (Pah, no sarckey smiley )

Edited September 12, 2012 by Theo Snelders

[fueradejuego]

To prevent people repeating lies, unchallenged, as for example fuerodejuego did on the previous thread about this, that the Liverpool fans were absolutely not at fault for the tragedy.

There are still people who believe this fallacy, proven by the fact that every single one of these threads attracts a few magee types, because they haven't actually read the Taylor Report, but have instead taken their truth from the Liverpool FC fans' propaganda machine.

This is the agenda the Hillsborough campaigners have pushed from the beginning. It's tainted their campaign in my view and undone a lot of the good work which has been done.

Firstly, get my name right

I don't like being lumped in with some of the people posting on here so I'll state my views on this.

Too many people in this debate become embroiled with whether or not the Liverpool fans are great / scum. That's irrelevant.

96 people went to see a game of football and never went home. The changes which were instigated by Taylor have made football a much better experience for all of us. That those improvements arose as a result of the disaster is a tragedy.

I accept that Liverpool fans would have been pushing and jostling both outside and then as they entered the stadium. My view is that the pushing etc stemmed initially from the mismanagement of the crowd at Leppings Lane which had too few turnstiles for such a large crowd.

Fans always turn up late for games and the scale of the Stand and number of fans trying to enter was going to create a logistical problem as it had done on previous occasions.

When the police panicked and opened up Gate C (I think from memory?) of course fans are going to move quickly into the ground and some would push etc.

The problems then arise from the fact that all fans were directed into the central pens and as they entered the pens from the tunnel, the gradient of the terracing was steep meaning you would pick up momentum. Once inside the pens, the barriers on the terracing were inadequate and, like the gradient, failed to meet the criteria of the Green Guide which dealt with safety matters etc at that time.

The game starts and more fans try to get in. They are directed towards the central pens and the problem keeps on mounting.

If Hillsborough had met the required safety standards and had been policed properly, there would still have likely been problems outside the ground simply due to the confined entrance area.

I don't believe the Liverpool fans are to blame for those reasons. I understand why some people can say that the Liverpool fans must take part of the blame etc and to be honest I don't really have a massive problem with saying they played a minor role etc in the tragedy. Some fans will have pushed but did they push as they moved onto the terracing and the gradient of the slope altered? Did they push forward when one of the barriers collapsed meaning there was movement forward? Or were they just people desperate to see their team in the FA Cup semi final? I'm not suggesting that any fan deliberately pushed for malevolent reasons though.

To then place a percentage value of the blame on anyone would be completely arbitrary.

Some on here will disagree with my views. As mentioned above, I don't have an issue in a discussion where,to all intents and purposes, we're splitting hairs. What I do have an issue with is the constant peddling of crap around the issue such as "it was caused by ticketless fans" or the "fans were all pished" etc

Hopefully, today will mark the beginning of the end of the discussion.

[Guest Kincardine]

Its despicable that some are using hysel to almost justify the death of these 96 inocent people.

The problem is that Hysel added credence to the notion that most of the blame for Hillsborough lay with the Liverpool fans.

By the late 80s the reputation of Liverpool fans, and Scousers in general, was atrocious. It was very easy to believe that the tragedy was caused by jakey Scousers looking to push in to a game without tickets and who then robbed the pockets of the dead and pished over our 'brave' policemen as they tried to revive injured people.

What's more the, "Justice for the 96" campaign was seen by many people (including me) as a cause orchestrated by Scouse grief-junkies who refused to accept their own culpability.

Now I haven't followed this story over the years so I don't know if today provided new evidence or not.

However, I have listened to the wireless and read various news reports today and I have changed my mind regarding Hillborough. My sympathies now lie firmly with the fans.

I hope the families of the folk who died are duly compensated.

[Gaz]

Saying 99% of the Liverpool fans you have ever met is a fucking ridiculous comment unless you have met 2 in your lifetime.

Eh...?

[Jimmy85]

Eh...?

Simple mathematics, Gaz. 99% of the two Liverpool fans he met were scum.

[KillieRaider]

I must be one of those 'twisted p***ks with a hidden agenda' then because Liverpool fans have done nothing but disgrace themselves time and time again. As the whole Suarez thing and the racist chanting at the young lad from Northampton(?) at the start of the year proved. Also 99% of Liverpool fans I have met have been complete arseholes as well.

You are showing your ignorance sir. The incident was an oldham game and was not followed up by the police as there was no evidence/case to answer.

As for the Suarez thing, how do you know what he said in reality?

I think you have been willing to believe the wrong type of people simply because it suits your worldview.

Persisting in trying to blame the dead for their own demise when a right wing government admits it was down to police incompetence is shameful.

As you evil or wilfully ignorant?

[KillieRaider]

<br />I must be one of those 'twisted p***ks with a hidden agenda' then because Liverpool fans have done nothing but disgrace themselves time and time again. As the whole Suarez thing and the racist chanting at the young lad from Northampton(?) at the start of the year proved. Also 99% of Liverpool fans I have met have been complete arseholes as well.<br />

<br /><br />You are showing your ignorance sir. The incident was an oldham game and was not followed up by the police as there was no evidence/case to answer.<br />As for the Suarez thing, how do you know what he said in reality? <br />I think you have been willing to believe the wrong type of people simply because it suits your worldview. <br />Persisting in trying to blame the dead for their own demise when a right wing government admits it was down to police incompetence is shameful. <br />As you evil or wilfully ignorant?

[54_and_counting]

Have the FA made any comment yet as to why they chose a ground that had no valid safety certificate to host a cup semi final?

most likely because it had hosted 5 previously that decade, and had coped with Wednesdays promotion and fan increase that season remarkably well

having read this thread, and a lot of other threads elsewhere regarding the disaster, i think a lot of the people are missing something, the catalyst to the whole event was a large amount of fans continually trying to get into the ground through a congested area, causing a crush outside the ground which was endangering lives

it has never been explained or barely mentioned just how so many fans were allowed to, or indeed why they choose to go to an already crowded entrance point to the stadium

[Theo Snelders]

Simple mathematics, Gaz. 99% of the two Liverpool fans he met were scum.

Sorry that was a bad experience.

Why tar all Scousers with the same brush?

Susan

[Ayrforce1]

The evasive action available that day was to stop, as it is in driving. Some people decided it was better to plough on despite the obvious resistance they must have felt.

"That looks like a hell of a crush up there, maybe if a crowd of us push from the back we could help clear it."

or

"The traffic has stopped, I wonder what's happening? Oh f**k it, carry on. I want to see what's happening."

Same thing really.

Your logic is not without reason however it is not necessarily the sole reason for a surge like this.

The momentum and movement of a crowd that size into a confined space was a job for the match commander and those in charge to avoid in which they failed.

Can you imagine leaving with a large crowd at the old hampden and only one of the exits was opened when the 20,000 or so in your section coming at your back off the terracing were expecting all the exits open?

There would have been a surge/push for sure.

The point is that most of the liverpool fans that day did not know what they were walking into and were reliant on decent instruction and crowd control from the police and stewards yet were herded into the fatefull pens.

[gy diamond]

You are showing your ignorance sir. The incident was an oldham game and was not followed up by the police as there was no evidence/case to answer.

As for the Suarez thing, how do you know what he said in reality?

I think you have been willing to believe the wrong type of people simply because it suits your worldview.

Persisting in trying to blame the dead for their own demise when a right wing government admits it was down to police incompetence is shameful.

As you evil or wilfully ignorant?

So it never happened? Why did the Oldham player break down in tears because of racial abuse if it never happened?

He has came out and admitted what he said, It's fine though because in Uruguay it's ok to call someone a 'Negrito'.

I have never once (read back through the thread) blamed the dead for what happened at Hillsborough, all I have said is that Liverpool fans have to accept responsibly for the part they played in what happened.

[realsemps]

Stunning ignorance by so many people on this thread.I can only assume that those people are either too young to have watched the scenes with their own eyes, or too thick to read the official and anecdotal reports.If David Cameron feels the need to throw the establishment under the bus surely the alarm bells must be ringing in the tiny minds of even the most dedicated of internet trolls?But then again that may not suit their agenda...

Spot on . This was a large crowd going to see an FA Cup semi-final. Not the last night of the proms. It was close to kick off. They'll want to get in . The police and stewards are there for a reason not to stand around like spare pr!cks at a wedding.And in any event surely the most worrying thing about today's revelations is the fact that a police force not only lost vital evidence but systematically altered peoples' statements? This is compounded by a coroner who isn't interested in hearing evidence about what happened after 3.15 because , in his view , none of the casualties were alive ? How heartbreaking must it be for that woman to discover that at 3.50 an off-duty policeman noticed a pulse in her son and when he shook him the lad said " Mum"? A national institution The Scum under the editorship of that vile weasel Kelvin Mackenzie then trashes the dead . The Establishment then ignores and is complicit in the cover up . And some folk still want to point the finger of blame at Liverpool fans. Unbelievable.

[Guest Kincardine]

If traffic stops in front of you do you drive in to the back of it?

Of course not - but if some c**t shunts you from behind then you're fucked.

Crowd control when I started going to football in the 60s was atrocious. At big games at Ibrox or Hampden it wasn't unusual for a big wave of fans to hem you in. This is when I learned that it's safer to stand in front of a cruch barrier rather then use it to rest your elbows on.

I also remember going to Murrayfield in the 70s for a game against Wales and being carried along by the crowd for, maybe, 20 yards without my feet touching the ground.

[Swampy]

Of course not - but if some c**t shunts you from behind then you're fucked.

Crowd control when I started going to football in the 60s was atrocious. At big games at Ibrox or Hampden it wasn't unusual for a big wave of fans to hem you in. This is when I learned that it's safer to stand in front of a cruch barrier rather then use it to rest your elbows on.

I also remember going to Murrayfield in the 70s for a game against Wales and being carried along by the crowd for, maybe, 20 yards without my feet touching the ground.

This is key. My first ever football match was in 1992. I am well aware that even by then it was a different situation to 3 years earlier. People trying to apply the standards of today's crowds to the situation of an above-capacity crowd (ticketed or no) in the 80s is idiotic.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

it has never been explained or barely mentioned just how so many fans were allowed to, or indeed why they choose to go to an already crowded entrance point to the stadium

There was no police checking tickets leading up to the ground. Fans were allowed to get up to the turnstiles without a ticket. Unlike the previous year. Why was that changed?

I really don't know the age of most of the people posting on here these days, but I remember we even had a system like that for the fans going to Brockville. We were all stopped at the railway bridge where we had to produce our tickets before we got anywhere near the ground. Brockville, with 3000 to 4000 fans tops.

[54_and_counting]

The momentum and movement of a crowd that size into a confined space was a job for the match commander and those in charge to avoid in which they failed.

the reason they went into a confined space was because there was a danger of people being killed outside the ground in the crush to get in

the STV proramme about it the other night showed a couple of things, one was a survivor that said he heard that "there was another way in" when news of the exit being opened up to relieve pressure got round the fans

The exit being opened was never a move to get fans access to the ground, it was simply to try and relieve pressure n the crush outside the ground

one of the faults aimed at the match commander that day was that there was no stewards there to guide fans into the less full pens, yet when you see the CCTV footage there was no chance of a couple of stewards being able to do anything there nevermind guide the surging crowd into empty pens

there was massive failings on both the police, stewarding and even the match officials who did not delay the game, but again nothing or very little is mentioned about the fact that Liverpool fans, and their lack of common sense in regards to pushing forward at an already dangerously full entrance area, were the catalyst that set in motion a series of f**k ups that led to the disaster

[dundeefc1783]

Spot on . This was a large crowd going to see an FA Cup semi-final. Not the last night of the proms. It was close to kick off. They'll want to get in . The police and stewards are there for a reason not to stand around like spare pr!cks at a wedding.And in any event surely the most worrying thing about today's revelations is the fact that a police force not only lost vital evidence but systematically altered peoples' statements? This is compounded by a coroner who isn't interested in hearing evidence about what happened after 3.15 because , in his view , none of the casualties were alive ? How heartbreaking must it be for that woman to discover that at 3.50 an off-duty policeman noticed a pulse in her son and when he shook him the lad said " Mum"? A national institution The Scum under the editorship of that vile weasel Kelvin Mackenzie then trashes the dead . The Establishment then ignores and is complicit in the cover up . And some folk still want to point the finger of blame at Liverpool fans. Unbelievable.

Well said.

This could have happened to any club due to the poor stadium and the failure of police and stewards.

[Ayrforce1]

In the Taylor report it was, and Cameron was very concious about what rhetoric he was going to use, and he took the "do not offend" the grief merchants.

Yes but if you have bothered reading/watching or listening to the media at all today you will read/see/hear that a lot of statements given at the time (164 from the police alone) have been doctored to help support this lie.

Anyway you are obviously trolling with the "grief merchants" quote so just f**k off now.

[Swampy]

I genuinely think some Liverpool fans expect the government to turn around and say "it's a fair cop, it was all the fault of the police and nothing whatsoever to do with drunken troublemakers. No sir."

Well, today's independent releases place precisely zero of the blame on "drunken troublemakers", so one out of two ain't bad. Alcohol was found not to be a contributory factor.

[54_and_counting]

There was no police checking tickets leading up to the ground. Fans were allowed to get up to the turnstiles without a ticket. Unlike the previous year. Why was that changed?

I really don't know the age of most of the people posting on here these days, but I remember we even had a system like that for the fans going to Brockville. We were all stopped at the railway bridge where we had to produce our tickets before we got anywhere near the ground. Brockville, with 3000 to 4000 fans tops.

even if the fans had tickets, surely to f**k common sense would make them go "holy f**k there is 500 people waiting to get in there" i'll find another way in or give it a few minutes"

what we have to think is that wednesday had played many MANY home games that season with little or no trouble or crushing at turnstyles, and that the round had hosted 5 semi finals previously that decade after being upraded in 1981 or 1982 (cant mind the exact year)