qosrush Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 and the reason the exit ate was opened was to relieve the crush happening from fans too impatient to get into the game, and too stupid to not add to the already dangerous problem happening at the turnstyle what the police did after the game was nothing short of disgraceful, sickening in fact, but there should never have been a reason to open the exit gate at 2.50pm to try and save lives outside the ground Correct on both counts. You really have to ask the question, Would this have happened if there were no ticketless fans there? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Correct on both counts. You really have to ask the question, Would this have happened if there were no ticketless fans there? Taken from the Taylor Report... "I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion. I am satisfied that the large concentration at Leppings Lane from 2:30pm to 2:50pm did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan. There were, I accept, small groups without tickets who were willing to exploit any adventitious chance of getting into the ground. They, together with the minority who had drunk too much, certainly aggravated the problem faced by the police. But that main problem was simply one of large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles." "The police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence." And from The Hillsborough Football Disaster: Context and Consequences... "Sheffield Wednesday FC’s own admission count system showed the terrace did not exceed its 10,100 capacity (for the Leppings Lane end). As part of their analysis, the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) counted the number of [Liverpool] supporters entering the ground, including those through the turnstiles, through Gate C and even those who climbed over the turnstiles. They gave three admission figures based on their analysis. Their first figure was 9,267, their ‘best estimate’ was 9,734, and their third figure was a ‘maximum estimate’ of 10,124. The HSE report stated it was unlikely that the terrace exceeded 10,124 and that total admissions were approximately equal to the designated capacity of 10,100 people. Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster." So ask the question all you like but the answer is already there if you care enough to look for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy85 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 No need for it though, is there? I agree. The flying of the flag by the Liverpool fans was an absolutely despicable act. You'd think after the events of Hillsborough they wouldn't revel in the deaths of football fans, especially football fans they murdered. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wragg Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 164 documents 'doctored' must surely lead to criminal procedings? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Too often in the past, events like this were avoidable yet nobody took any action until such a tragedy occurred. It's as if the authorities were either uninterested or so desensitised to matters that the only way for action to occur was when something as socking as this occurred. I suppose it's always the way of it in hindsight. People in the 1950s looked back to rail disasters of the 1800s and couldn't understand why simple aspects of railway signalling weren't introduced, and yet we now look back to civil air disasters of the 1950s and can't understand why simple aspects of strength testing weren't applied. Same story with seat-belts in cars. Look at the Bradford fire... in hindsight it seems completely obvious that allowing smoking in a wooden stand with half a century's litter under the treads was a disaster waiting to happen. But few if any did then, until it happened. Afterall, there'd been wooden stands for 100yrs, and people had always smoked, and there'd never been a problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Taken from the Taylor Report... "I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion. I am satisfied that the large concentration at Leppings Lane from 2:30pm to 2:50pm did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan. There were, I accept, small groups without tickets who were willing to exploit any adventitious chance of getting into the ground. They, together with the minority who had drunk too much, certainly aggravated the problem faced by the police. But that main problem was simply one of large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles." "The police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence." And from The Hillsborough Football Disaster: Context and Consequences... "Sheffield Wednesday FC's own admission count system showed the terrace did not exceed its 10,100 capacity (for the Leppings Lane end). As part of their analysis, the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) counted the number of [Liverpool] supporters entering the ground, including those through the turnstiles, through Gate C and even those who climbed over the turnstiles. They gave three admission figures based on their analysis. Their first figure was 9,267, their 'best estimate' was 9,734, and their third figure was a 'maximum estimate' of 10,124. The HSE report stated it was unlikely that the terrace exceeded 10,124 and that total admissions were approximately equal to the designated capacity of 10,100 people. Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster." So ask the question all you like but the answer is already there if you care enough to look for it. The FA were the ones selling the tickets, that was the point I was trying to make to that *** troll earlier. The ticketing had nothing to do with Wednesday. Graham Kelly is the one who should be accountable for that. You seen the headline from the rag tomorrow yet? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You seen the headline from the rag tomorrow yet? Nope, no doubt the news channels will have it within the next few hours though. Obviously something they feel they have to do but have they not already apologised previously in any case? Doubt it'll make much of a difference to those effected by the disaster and the headlines. Didn't expect MacKenzie to come away with what he did today but again, it's far too late and doubt it will change anyone's opinion of him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The Real Truth. The Police smeared Liverpool fans. Nope, not McKenzie, the police. They can go f**k themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Have not read the thread, as I guess/fear how it may have gone... and it'll be interesting to see if anyone take issue with this... but for me the tragedy of Hillsborough is also the tragedy of English (even European) football in the 1980s. Though particular elements unfortunately conspired to create such tragedy that day... the ground, the stand, the nature of fans arrival, the behaviour and 'decision-making' of the police... the ingredients had quietly brewed for years beforehand. In some cases decades. They could conceivably have combined at other matches at other grounds, not just Hillsborough that particular day. Grounds were kept in poor repair, and crowd safety - entrances, exits, stewarding, access etc. - was not treated seriously. Hooliganism had led to the 'penning-in' of terracings, in order to prevent pitch invasions and fighting between rival supporters. That violence had also led to animosity between supporters and the police. All these problems were issues in themselves, but they conspired with the individual circumstances to create disaster. In that particular respect, the coverup of the bungling decision-making and poor attitude of the police is seperate. It has sadly exacerbated and delayed the final acceptance of the tragic circumstances that created "The Hillsborough Disaster". Clearly those who went about actively creating a cover-up should be brought to account. But for me, the tragedy - as opposed to the scandal - is the combination of ingredients which, in hindsight, was avoidable and yet inevitable. well said, HJ. The attitude towards decent lawabiding football fans from the authorities at that time was absolutely disgraceful. Yes, there was hooliganism at matches and yes, it must have been bloody difficult to police. The attitude of the authorities to football fans though was that they were all one, looked down upon, lower class. Pen the damned lot of them in with their thugs and to hell with their safety. There was little concept of personal accountability, who did right and wrong, just tar them all together. To be honest, the same attitude of the trolls talking about "this team's fans" and "that country's fans",but with hideous consequences. We have to make sure we're never treated like that again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pub car king Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The actions of the police at the time and in subsequent years was appalling however to lay the blame 100% on one factor is not just. This disaster was a perfect storm of bad planning an outdated venue not fit for purpose traffic jams a big crowd no one checking tickets it could have happened many more times. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Have not read the thread, as I guess/fear how it may have gone... and it'll be interesting to see if anyone take issue with this... but for me the tragedy of Hillsborough is also the tragedy of English (even European) football in the 1980s. Though particular elements unfortunately conspired to create such tragedy that day... the ground, the stand, the nature of fans arrival, the behaviour and 'decision-making' of the police... the ingredients had quietly brewed for years beforehand. In some cases decades. They could conceivably have combined at other matches at other grounds, not just Hillsborough that particular day. Grounds were kept in poor repair, and crowd safety - entrances, exits, stewarding, access etc. - was not treated seriously. Hooliganism had led to the 'penning-in' of terracings, in order to prevent pitch invasions and fighting between rival supporters. That violence had also led to animosity between supporters and the police. All these problems were issues in themselves, but they conspired with the individual circumstances to create disaster. In that particular respect, the coverup of the bungling decision-making and poor attitude of the police is seperate. It has sadly exacerbated and delayed the final acceptance of the tragic circumstances that created "The Hillsborough Disaster". Clearly those who went about actively creating a cover-up should be brought to account. But for me, the tragedy - as opposed to the scandal - is the combination of ingredients which, in hindsight, was avoidable and yet inevitable. I was interested to read your opinion on this considering in the past you have been happy to believe every word the police say without question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) I was interested to read your opinion on this considering in the past you have been happy to believe every word the police say without question. I'm sorry? Edited September 12, 2012 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The/Republic Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Firstly, get my name right I don't like being lumped in with some of the people posting on here so I'll state my views on this. Too many people in this debate become embroiled with whether or not the Liverpool fans are great / scum. That's irrelevant. 96 people went to see a game of football and never went home. The changes which were instigated by Taylor have made football a much better experience for all of us. That those improvements arose as a result of the disaster is a tragedy. I accept that Liverpool fans would have been pushing and jostling both outside and then as they entered the stadium. My view is that the pushing etc stemmed initially from the mismanagement of the crowd at Leppings Lane which had too few turnstiles for such a large crowd. Fans always turn up late for games and the scale of the Stand and number of fans trying to enter was going to create a logistical problem as it had done on previous occasions. When the police panicked and opened up Gate C (I think from memory?) of course fans are going to move quickly into the ground and some would push etc. The problems then arise from the fact that all fans were directed into the central pens and as they entered the pens from the tunnel, the gradient of the terracing was steep meaning you would pick up momentum. Once inside the pens, the barriers on the terracing were inadequate and, like the gradient, failed to meet the criteria of the Green Guide which dealt with safety matters etc at that time. The game starts and more fans try to get in. They are directed towards the central pens and the problem keeps on mounting. If Hillsborough had met the required safety standards and had been policed properly, there would still have likely been problems outside the ground simply due to the confined entrance area. I don't believe the Liverpool fans are to blame for those reasons. I understand why some people can say that the Liverpool fans must take part of the blame etc and to be honest I don't really have a massive problem with saying they played a minor role etc in the tragedy. Some fans will have pushed but did they push as they moved onto the terracing and the gradient of the slope altered? Did they push forward when one of the barriers collapsed meaning there was movement forward? Or were they just people desperate to see their team in the FA Cup semi final? I'm not suggesting that any fan deliberately pushed for malevolent reasons though. To then place a percentage value of the blame on anyone would be completely arbitrary. Some on here will disagree with my views. As mentioned above, I don't have an issue in a discussion where,to all intents and purposes, we're splitting hairs. What I do have an issue with is the constant peddling of crap around the issue such as "it was caused by ticketless fans" or the "fans were all pished" etc Hopefully, today will mark the beginning of the end of the discussion. ^^^ THIS. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I'm sorry? Friday night football and drinking in stadiums for example. Your main argument against them was basically, "the police said no, so who are we to disagree?" It's off topic, but just find your opinion interesting now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz FFC Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 A lot of pissed off people around the now who for years enjoyed telling anyone who would listen that Liverpool fans were solely to blame for the tragedy. After 23 years we finally know that this is not the case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magee84 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 A lot of pissed off people around the now who for years enjoyed telling anyone who would listen that Liverpool fans were solely to blame for the tragedy. After 23 years we finally know that this is not the case. Still doesnt stop them trying to troll and smear them here. #JFT96 -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 A lot of pissed off people around the now who for years enjoyed telling anyone who would listen that Liverpool fans were solely to blame for the tragedy. After 23 years we finally know that this is not the case. What a laughable claim, no one, absolutely no one, said it was solely down to the Liverpool fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Friday night football and drinking in stadiums for example. Your main argument against them was basically, "the police said no, so who are we to disagree?" In that Friday night football was a resource issue I guess that might be construed as the case: but I find it a pretty tenuous and/or childish approach to compare that to having a view on police mistakes at, and cover-ups following, the Hillsborough Disaster. Grow-up, essentially. It's off topic And yet clearly important enough for you to find it necessary to post about. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Stoops to new lows really 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrforce1 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Get that to f**k. Edit : Please. Yeah it was making me feel sick... Scumbag rag at the best of times. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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