H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Of course. No question about it. Does this count for Liverpool fans too? It's going to be interesting times ahead with regard to this. I think there have to be criminal proceedings applied both to the police and the medical services. What is very interesting also is that this isn't new evidence, as one of the Hillsborough campaigners reminded us last night. It's just not been in the public domain. Plenty of people (in relative terms) knew exactly this for 23 years, but said nothing and did nothing. That's so beyond acceptable it isn't true. This rivals the Met Police's institutional racism for me. It may sound kneejerk, but I really think we need to institute a completely different form of civilian oversight of the police. It's long overdue. We cannot trust the police forces in Britain - how many Birmingham Sixes, or Guildford Fours, or Hillsboroughs or Steven Lawrences do we need before enough is enough and we radically change policing in Britain. It's really Britain's shame and it goes on every day. Our police forces lie individually and systematically. In terms of the Liverpool fans culpable, that ship has sailed really. There will be no way of identifying the culprits and they certainly aren't going to come forward. Usually I would say the guilt they must have felt over the years was punishment enough, but I suspect these wankers don't even think about their shameful behaviour. Maybe I do them a disservice. It would be nice to hear, even anonymously, some of them come out and apologise. They might well have been young men and we all make mistakes, albeit most of ours don't have such tragic consequences. The chances of any apologies coming from these people, or introspective Liverpool fans' demands for it, is pretty much zero though. Which is a disgrace in itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintonfan Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 i think far too many of the folk posting on this thread are clearly too young to remember football in the bad old days, the police treated football supporters like animals even some of the terms used by the authorities typified this, terms like "penning and coralling" they were then herded into pens on decrepit terraces, apart from Ibrox all the scottish grounds were in the same condition only we didnt have the size of fences and more importantly the radial fences splitting the terrace into pens, also a lot of the terraces were larger than the ones in england Hillsborough wasnt the 1st, go back to 1946 and 33 people died in bolton see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnden_Park_disaster only in bolton the exit gates were opened by a guy trying to escape the crush, again police control was long lost. Football never learned the lessons, it should have learned but club owners spent money on players and nowhere near enough in ensuring a safe enviroment for the fans to watch the games, up to the 90's work on grounds was piecemeal and often poorly planned, it was all about getting as many folk in as possible to make as much money, facilities didnt exist for fans and for away fans like at the leppings lane end of hillsborough they got the worst of the worst. Nowadays the away area in grounds is as good as the home ends with safe stands, catering, toilets and disabled facilities football learned but did it have to take the best part of 300 people getting killed (between bolton, bradford, Ibrox, hillsborough and other small incidents) plus the countless near misses where fans got injured a few broken bones from crushes for socity to learn that football fans are actually human beings and deserve to be treated as such as for hillsborough and what happens next, i hope the original inquests are quashed and fresh ones opened, the truth needs to be found for every one of these fans, those responsible (if alive) need to be brought to account and sheffield wednesday need to do the decent thing anf totally rebuild the leppings lane end as apart from extending the roof, bolting seats onto the forner terrace and removing the cages it is still as it was in 89 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fueradejuego Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 In terms of the Liverpool fans culpable, that ship has sailed really. There will be no way of identifying the culprits and they certainly aren't going to come forward. Usually I would say the guilt they must have felt over the years was punishment enough, but I suspect these wankers don't even think about their shameful behaviour. Maybe I do them a disservice. It would be nice to hear, even anonymously, some of them come out and apologise. They might well have been young men and we all make mistakes, albeit most of ours don't have such tragic consequences. The chances of any apologies coming from these people, or introspective Liverpool fans' demands for it, is pretty much zero though. Which is a disgrace in itself. This is the part where I disagree with you and I am genuinely interested in how this part of the tragedy could be investigated further. How do you identify people who would have been pushing / jostling etc? How could you categorically state that certain people were pushing and not simply caught up in the momentum of the crowd? Supposing CCTV identifies maybe 12 people who were being bams at the back of the crowd etc and pushing. What charges could you bring against them? Those at the back would have no way of knowing what was happening at the front. I have been on the terracing at plenty of grounds when you cannot see what is happening in front of you or behind you and you get pulled along by the crowd whilst stewards and police take control of the situation by marshalling the crowd etc. I imagine that any argument supporting the fans pushing would maybe need to revolve around cause and effect? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 This rivals the Met Police's institutional racism for me. It may sound kneejerk, but I really think we need to institute a completely different form of civilian oversight of the police. It's long overdue. We cannot trust the police forces in Britain - how many Birmingham Sixes, or Guildford Fours, or Hillsboroughs or Steven Lawrences do we need before enough is enough and we radically change policing in Britain. It's really Britain's shame and it goes on every day. Our police forces lie individually and systematically. This is interesting - do you have anything in mind? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 most likely because it had hosted 5 previously that decade, and had coped with Wednesdays promotion and fan increase that season remarkably well having read this thread, and a lot of other threads elsewhere regarding the disaster, i think a lot of the people are missing something, the catalyst to the whole event was a large amount of fans continually trying to get into the ground through a congested area, causing a crush outside the ground which was endangering lives it has never been explained or barely mentioned just how so many fans were allowed to, or indeed why they choose to go to an already crowded entrance point to the stadium I read in an article in The Mirror that all 24,000 Liverpool fans that afternoon had to pass through just 23 turnstiles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magee84 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I read in an article in The Mirror that all 24,000 Liverpool fans that afternoon had to pass through just 23 turnstiles. Liverpool and Forest were given those ends as entering and exiting the area to go back to Nottingham and Liverpool was geographically easier, this also meant Forest getting 4000 extra tickets. Which club do you think has the larger following? Also when the roof was put on the Kop end of Hillsborough new and extra turnstiles were installed giving them 60 modern turnstiles compared to less than half that amount for the liverpool fans, and those turnstiles were ancient and were prone to jamming. Just the start of a catalouge of failures, the planning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarf Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I work with a woman who is from Sheffield and is a massive Wednesday fans and used to live round the corner from the ground. She was telling me she remembers quite vividly Liverpool fans absolutely steaming both before and after the game was abandoned. To quote her ' It was like when the Old Firm come up here. Pissing in folks front gardens and generally being wankers'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I imagine that any argument supporting the fans pushing would maybe need to revolve around cause and effect? Well, it's ultimately a question of negligence and duty of care. I think you have picked me up wrong though. I agree, that practically this can't be investigated now. Even were this to happen this weekend instead of all those years ago, it's going to be hugely difficult to identify the culprits on CCTV and a giant leap to establish to a criminal level (i.e. beyond reasonable doubt, not balance of probabilities) that they are guilty of an offence. I don't think criminal prosecutions against fans in such a large crowd situation are realistically possible. I'm not even convinced that reckless stupidity such as they exhibited is enough to constitute a criminal offence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 Liverpool and Forest were given those ends as entering and exiting the area to go back to Nottingham and Liverpool was geographically easier, this also meant Forest getting 4000 extra tickets. Which club do you think has the larger following? Also when the roof was put on the Kop end of Hillsborough new and extra turnstiles were installed giving them 60 modern turnstiles compared to less than half that amount for the liverpool fans, and those turnstiles were ancient and were prone to jamming. Just the start of a catalouge of failures, the planning. Although I agree in principal, surely had the Forest fans had the Leppings Lane then it may just have been a different set of fans that were involved? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 This is interesting - do you have anything in mind? When I wrote that I was thinking of the French TV show, Spiral. I didn't do Comparative Law at University, but I know that foreign legal systems have a different relationship between the judiciary and the police, or even between the populace and the police. i.e. judges appointed to police investigations to oversee the handling and procuring of evidence, the investigative chain, signing off on missions etc. In terms of civilian oversight, that is more difficult. It's a question of "who polices the police?" You can have civilian heads of police boards or complaint boards, but is that really close enough to operational day to day stuff to prevent organised corruption, as our police forces have engaged in. What is certainly true is that our current system affords the police far too much power and far too much unfettered power. That should change. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I work with a woman who is from Sheffield and is a massive Wednesday fans and used to live round the corner from the ground. She was telling me she remembers quite vividly Liverpool fans absolutely steaming both before and after the game was abandoned. To quote her ' It was like when the Old Firm come up here. Pissing in folks front gardens and generally being wankers'. I've been steaming b4, during and after games, folk used to take their cargo into the football. The layout and policing didn't help much in this instance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magee84 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Although I agree in principal, surely had the Forest fans had the Leppings Lane then it may just have been a different set of fans that were involved? Most likely yes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshmallo Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I work with a woman who is from Sheffield and is a massive Wednesday fans and used to live round the corner from the ground. She was telling me she remembers quite vividly Liverpool fans absolutely steaming both before and after the game was abandoned. To quote her ' It was like when the Old Firm come up here. Pissing in folks front gardens and generally being wankers'. Clear lies IMO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Although I agree in principal, surely had the Forest fans had the Leppings Lane then it may just have been a different set of fans that were involved? Quite conceivably... although obviously it would've still required the coincidence of other circumstances (transport etc.) which led to the glut of people arriving at the same time, kickoff not being delayed and the authorities fatefully deciding that the danger outside the ground necessitated opening the access gate. But that could've quite clearly happened at another big game, of which Hillsborough hosted many. sheffield wednesday need to do the decent thing anf totally rebuild the leppings lane end as apart from extending the roof, bolting seats onto the forner terrace and removing the cages it is still as it was in 89 Maybe I've misunderstood your point, but the stand now meets all safety criteria surely? Access and turnstiles were all rebuilt, as you say (like all big stadiums) it's now covered, all-seated and without pens or permiter barriers. It was 1 of the stadiums used at Euro 96, IIRC. Edited September 13, 2012 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Dogma Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 When I wrote that I was thinking of the French TV show, Spiral. I didn't do Comparative Law at University, but I know that foreign legal systems have a different relationship between the judiciary and the police, or even between the populace and the police. i.e. judges appointed to police investigations to oversee the handling and procuring of evidence, the investigative chain, signing off on missions etc. In terms of civilian oversight, that is more difficult. It's a question of "who polices the police?" You can have civilian heads of police boards or complaint boards, but is that really close enough to operational day to day stuff to prevent organised corruption, as our police forces have engaged in. What is certainly true is that our current system affords the police far too much power and far too much unfettered power. That should change. Couldnt agree more even today with the original phone hacking investigation it was clear that the default police position is to cover up. Also as an aside the number of times that news international are involved in some way is disturbing. Its vital for any democracy to have transparent trustworthy policing and right now we dont have that 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Dogma Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I remember in the mid 90s I went to landsdowne road for a rugby match with a ticket for the terrace behind the goal. Thousands of drunkvu fans with no ticket or tickets for other parts of the ground forced their way in there and there was some very hairy moments as a result. I imagine Scottish and Irish rugby fans wouldn't have been villified the way the scousers were if the same had happened. Tbf there's never been a major incident of crowd trouble at rugby. Fences were put up at football and all football fans were treated like animals because some fans acted like animals and indeed still do albeit nit in grounds because a lot of the thugs were priced out. Is it fair that all fans were demonised no...is it understandable? Yes....if you were to wander round many town centres on old firm Sundays in last few years you could easily if not accurately form the view the all old firm fans are drunken violent bigots. For me the fans in the seventies and eighties who were violent at football share some of the hillsborough blood for causing fences to be seen as a good idea and. Giving corrupt police the ability to form a vile cover up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) I work with a woman who is from Sheffield and is a massive Wednesday fans and used to live round the corner from the ground. She was telling me she remembers quite vividly Liverpool fans absolutely steaming both before and after the game was abandoned. To quote her ' It was like when the Old Firm come up here. Pissing in folks front gardens and generally being wankers'. These second hand facts and hearsay have nothing to do with why people died at Hillsborough. It amazes me that despite cold, hard evidence being placed in front of people that the ticketless, drunk fans myth was propaganda designed to deflect criticism from the authorities, some folk still are pushing that line. Edited to add in a line from the report. There was "no evidence to support the proposition that alcohol played any part in the genesis of the disaster" Edited September 13, 2012 by roverthemoon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Tbf there's never been a major incident of crowd trouble at rugby. Fences were put up at football and all football fans were treated like animals because some fans acted like animals and indeed still do albeit nit in grounds because a lot of the thugs were priced out. Is it fair that all fans were demonised no...is it understandable? Yes....if you were to wander round many town centres on old firm Sundays in last few years you could easily if not accurately form the view the all old firm fans are drunken violent bigots. For me the fans in the seventies and eighties who were violent at football share some of the hillsborough blood for causing fences to be seen as a good idea and. Giving corrupt police the ability to form a vile cover up. I think you are bang on the money here. Great post. These second hand facts and hearsay have nothing to do with why people died at Hillsborough. It amazes me that despite cold, hard evidence being placed in front of people that the ticketless, drunk fans myth was propaganda designed to deflect criticism from the authorities, some folk still are pushing that line. I agree to an extent. I don't think drunkenness is a factor at all, whether it was true or not. In fact it should really be the Liverpool fans trying to peddle the drunk fans line, as it might give some reason to explain why theose at the back behaved so badly. The ticketless element is also a bit of a red herring, though again it could explain why some of those behaving so poorly did so (i.e. they wanted in quickly before their lack of a ticket could be established). As you say though, neither of these things is parttcularly important and neither of them excuse the scumbaggery of some Liverpool fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintonfan Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Maybe I've misunderstood your point, but the stand now meets all safety criteria surely? Access and turnstiles were all rebuilt, as you say (like all big stadiums) it's now covered, all-seated and without pens or permiter barriers. It was 1 of the stadiums used at Euro 96, IIRC. the bolting of the seats onto the terrace slashed the capacity but IIRC there is still only 7 turnstiles for the lower part of the leppings land end, yes the turnstiles themselves were replaced with modern ones and the capacity is 6.5k compared to 14k in 89 so the amount of fans entering the stand is less than half. still the same stand and fans entering the seated area in the lower stand still use that infamous tunnell 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Another direct quote from the report: "With the exception of isolated examples of anger, frustration and inappropriate behaviour in the immediate aftermath, the statements disclosed to the panel do not substantiate the allegations published in the press and attributed to police spokespeople, most of which relied on hearsay" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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