Hillsborough debate

[pandarilla]

i love the way people keep saying " justice for the families" implying they were all innocent.it will be justice for the police when this is done the bottom line is that yet again to many druken ticketless scouser reapetedly

ignored police advice.

Have you changed your mind on this topic then?

[Hammer Jag]

That was difficult to watch. Des Lynam was a class act though.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Hammer Jag

[FlyerTon]

Virtually every newspaper in Britain has the Hillsborough verdict on its front page today.

 

On the link below, out of the 13 front pages, only the The Sun and The Times don't mention the verdict on their front page.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-36147007

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/hillsborough-inquest-verdict-the-sun-kelvin-mackenzie_uk_571f4311e4b06bf544e0a7fa

Edited April 27, 2016 by FlyerTon

[ScotSquid]

Too many people still focusing on 'fans behaviour' as some kind of cause. They were exonerated.

As has been pointed out the actions of individuals and the actions of large crowds are not the same, and treating them as such is unhelpful. It's a bit like folk comparing the economy of a country to the economy of a household. It's simply too different to make such a simple point.

Yes some fans would have been drinking. Yes some fans would have been acting like knobs. But that doesn't equate to blame.

Except it does. The actions of the fans contributed to the disaster. The Taylor Report made this clear.

They werent the primary cause, and even had they behaved impeccably, a disaster may have been inevitable anyway, as the authorities are unquestionably the primary cause.

[Bully Wee Villa]

Not sure why you people keep peddling that shite but still, from the latest jury finding:

The jury was asked under point 7, "Behaviour of Supporters"... "was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?"

Jury response: "No".

[Mr. Brightside]

OJ was innocent and so was Michael Jackson then. Cos the Jury said so right.

[Richie]

Except it does. The actions of the fans contributed to the disaster. The Taylor Report made this clear.

Does yesterday's verdict not supercede the Taylor Report and therefore make it largely irrelevant in terms of causative behaviour by fans?

Anyway, as others have said, crowd dynamics are a different scenario.

The next logical step would be apportioning blame to Liverpool fans because they attended the game and therefore instigated a large gathering.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Richie

[Tamdunk]

OJ was innocent and so was Michael Jackson then. Cos the Jury said so right.

After 2 years of evidence they're probably in a better position to judge it. I've been of the opinion in the past that the fans were a contributing factor, but once your in a tight crowd and it surges there's nothing you can do to affect it. You just have to keep your head and go with the flow.

[Mr. Brightside]

After 2 years of evidence they're probably in a better position to judge it.

I highly doubt that, it's political point scoring to absolve the fans of any blame whatsoever.

[ayrmad]

I've not yet read my way through this thread but some folk on page 1 are now looking like proper c***s.

No, other pages on here confirm that some of them ARE proper c***s.

[ayrmad]

I suspect neither 7-2 nor 'Wings' have actually been to big games.  It just is (was) not like standing in a supermarket queue and the blessing is that such events didn't happen more often.

 

Ibrox, Hampden, Celtic Park and even Murrayfield were notorious for appalling crowd control 'back in the day'.

It was hard enough getting out of the Somerset Road/Tryfield Place exit in one piece after big games back then.

[sparky88]

It was hard enough getting out of the Somerset Road/Tryfield Place exit in one piece after big games back then.

Somerset Park has changed so much over the years, of course.

[ayrmad]

Somerset Park has changed so much over the years, of course.

The maximum attendance is ~ 1/3 of what it used to be.

[ScotSquid]

Does yesterday's verdict not supercede the Taylor Report and therefore make it largely irrelevant in terms of causative behaviour by fans?

Anyway, as others have said, crowd dynamics are a different scenario.

The next logical step would be apportioning blame to Liverpool fans because they attended the game and therefore instigated a large gathering.

Why would it supersede the Taylor report?

Crowd dynamics can be very different. A queue of people waiting to enter an opera venue is different from a queue of people waiting to enter a football stadium.

A queue of people waiting to enter a football stadium at 2.05 is very different from a queue of people waiting to enter a football stadium at 2.59.

As several posters have said, this is a political situation. And acknowledging the fans' undoubted partial culpability makes it easier for those primarily to blame to point fingers.

This is the correct result, as it gives most opportunity to have the real culprits brought to justice. That doesn't mean the Liverpool fans didn't inadvertently contribute to the carnage with their behaviour.

[EvilScotsman]

Why would it supersede the Taylor report?

Crowd dynamics can be very different. A queue of people waiting to enter an opera venue is different from a queue of people waiting to enter a football stadium.

A queue of people waiting to enter a football stadium at 2.05 is very different from a queue of people waiting to enter a football stadium at 2.59.

As several posters muppets have said, this is a political situation. And acknowledging the fans' undoubted partial culpability makes it easier for those primarily to blame to point fingers.

This is the correct result, as it gives most opportunity to have the real culprits brought to justice. That doesn't mean the Liverpool fans didn't inadvertently contribute to the carnage with their behaviour.

[DA Baracus]

The whole shite about all seater stadiums should be looked at again. We know the authorities lied and covered up what happened at Hillsborough. The police and the footballing authorities, in conjunction with the government, used these lies and cover up to force select recommendations of the Taylor report on to clubs.

 

 

Happily the SPFL have no all seater rule, but the police and local councils are seemingly still unwilling to grant a safety certificate to clubs in Scotland should they revert to terracing, despite them being fine with grounds that still have terracing. Basically they don't want terracing to come back to top grounds, and since it's only lower league grounds who have it, they aren't bothered with them as they don't attract as many fans.

 

 

The whole 'safe standing' stuff is laughable shite. Just give us terracing that is in good condition, is well maintained, has enough crush barriers and has a strict capacity that is never exceeded. There is absolutely nothing unsafe about standing.

[Savage Henry]

The whole shite about all seater stadiums should be looked at again. We know the authorities lied and covered up what happened at Hillsborough. The police and the footballing authorities, in conjunction with the government, used these lies and cover up to force select recommendations of the Taylor report on to clubs.

Happily the SPFL have no all seater rule, but the police and local councils are seemingly still unwilling to grant a safety certificate to clubs in Scotland should they revert to terracing, despite them being fine with grounds that still have terracing. Basically they don't want terracing to come back to top grounds, and since it's only lower league grounds who have it, they aren't bothered with them as they don't attract as many fans.

The whole 'safe standing' stuff is laughable shite. Just give us terracing that is in good condition, is well maintained, has enough crush barriers and has a strict capacity that is never exceeded. There is absolutely nothing unsafe about standing.

Of course there isn't. But replacing seating with standing would require an initial outlay of cash, a reduction in ticket pricing (or a comparable improvement in "match day experience". Standing versus seating is a bit of a red herring.

[Tamdunk]

I highly doubt that, it's political point scoring to absolve the fans of any blame whatsoever.

 

Was it not just a jury of the public?

[Rugster]

The whole shite about all seater stadiums should be looked at again. We know the authorities lied and covered up what happened at Hillsborough. The police and the footballing authorities, in conjunction with the government, used these lies and cover up to force select recommendations of the Taylor report on to clubs.

 

 

Happily the SPFL have no all seater rule, but the police and local councils are seemingly still unwilling to grant a safety certificate to clubs in Scotland should they revert to terracing, despite them being fine with grounds that still have terracing. Basically they don't want terracing to come back to top grounds, and since it's only lower league grounds who have it, they aren't bothered with them as they don't attract as many fans.

 

 

The whole 'safe standing' stuff is laughable shite. Just give us terracing that is in good condition, is well maintained, has enough crush barriers and has a strict capacity that is never exceeded. There is absolutely nothing unsafe about standing.

100% correct.

[GAD]

Was it not just a jury of the public?

No, political stooges apparently who must have been forced into giving a verdict that two years of evidence didn't support.