~~~ Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 it would have happened with any set of fans that day. Maybe But let's be brutally honest here, Liverpool fans have got previous. Despite what they might like you to believe they really are a horrible bunch of fans -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) Here's a good bullet point list of today's findings: South Yorkshire police disseminated false information to Conservative MP Irvine Patnick, a source for the subsequent infamous story from the Sun newspaper which led with the headline 'The Truth'. 164 statements made by police in attendance that day were later doctored in order to suit a narrative which laid blame on supporters. 116 "negative comments" were removed from these police statements. Tests for blood alcohol level were performed on all of the 96 victims and, when those proved to be negligible, the criminal records of victims were sought. Dr. Stefan Popper, who presided over the original inquest into the deaths, had suggested that a probe was unnecessary as the cause of death was already known - despite these being required by law. 31 of the victims still had heart and lung function after 3.15pm, the cut off point by which it was adjudged all victims had died in the original inquest. The "shortcomings" of the response from emergency services led to the avoidable deaths of 59 of the victims. Senior police officers accused "drunken marauding fans" of "animalistic behaviour" in the aftermath of the disaster. South Yorkshire ambulance service wrongly discredited criticisms of its conduct from doctors present on the day. The Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher was fully aware that the original inquiry contained "devastating criticism" of the police. There is "no evidence of substance" to suggest that the drunken or aggressive behaviour of fans was in any way a contributory factor. What a sordid array of cover-ups, lies, and flim-flam. How disgusting. And we football fans are arguing among ourselves while all this goes on. Edited September 12, 2012 by Swampy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Maybe But let's be brutally honest here, Liverpool fans have got previous. Despite what they might like you to believe they really are a horrible bunch of fans that is part of it too. The police were over cautious to get emergency services involved since Liverpool fans were notorious for their hooliganism. I'm not following the discrediting of the drunkenness point. They tested the dead and injured for blood-alcohol levels but really those at the back who caused the pushing were more likely to be drunk rather than those unfortunate to be at the front. The police must have observed drinking and were trying to prove alcohol played a part but they seem to have went about it in a stupid way that discredited their case 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beermonkey Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 There are a number of things to blame in all this, liverpool fans, police, sheff wed. but the main cause of hillsborough was the fences, no ifs or buts about it...take away the fences then the fans escape onto the pitch & the worst you're left with is probably a few injuries. I don't know who was responsible for putting up fences at football grounds, was that a goverment thing or was it the football authorities? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) What a sordid array of cover-ups, lies, and flim-flam. How disgusting. And we football fans are arguing among ourselves while all this goes on. Hear, hear. The were many contributary factors to the tragedy, but today makes the subsequent cover up and collusion explicitly and sickeningly clear. That's the truth the campaigners have sought, and they have been vindicated to that end. Edited September 12, 2012 by Nizzy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 But let's be brutally honest here, Liverpool fans have got previous. Despite what they might like you to believe they really are a horrible bunch of fans Very, very true. I'd point out the irony here but this isn't the time nor place. What do some of these Liverpool supporters actually consider justice to be? 14 Liverpool supporters were given 3 year sentences (half suspended) for manslaughter after Heysel (Source), would Juventus supporters consider that justice? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 i'm sure there were people saved after 3:15pm. 700+ people were injured and it is hard to citicise medics for making medical choices about who is more deserving of care with limited medics able to assist. No investigations were carried out into the faults of the emergency services because of a claim that everyone was dead by 3:15pm. That's the significance of that time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Everyone knows any football crowd has a huge number of people who arrive at the turnstiles very close to kick off. Given the facilities and the way it was stewarded it would have happened with any set of fans that day. Yes, predictable. I've been here before, several times. It's about personal responsibility. People need to take responsibility for their own behaviour, rather than blame exernal factors. I've been in a crowd crush situation. At Hogmanay in Edinburgh, the year before it became ticketed to avoid this. It was horrendous, and I'm amazed there weren't people killed. Bad planning, bad policing, bad stewarrding - very possibly. Arsehole behaviour by ignorant impatient p***ks - absolutely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 There will never be "Justice For the 96" as it will never be publicly acknowledged that the Liverpool fans were at least partly to blame, which is a shame to be honest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 No investigations were carried out into the faults of the emergency services because of a claim that everyone was dead by 3:15pm. That's the significance of that time. Getting into why medical assistance was given to one person over another isn't particularly helpful. Paramedics had difficult decisions to make with so many people injured and a large crowd adding to the confusion of the situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Yes, predictable. I've been here before, several times. It's about personal responsibility. People need to take responsibility for their own behaviour, rather than blame exernal factors. Like the police did when doctoring 164 statements? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 No investigations were carried out into the faults of the emergency services because of a claim that everyone was dead by 3:15pm. That's the significance of that time. it's still irrelevant when considering the events of the day though. no one died because the coroner made 3:15 the cut off time for his inquiry which is what a lot of thick people seem to be taking from this. i've already seen a few people saying "50 odd people" could have lived as if emergency services downed tools at quarter past. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Getting into why medical assistance was given to one person over another isn't particularly helpful. Paramedics had difficult decisions to make with so many people injured and a large crowd adding to the confusion of the situation. But that's not why the 3:15pm cutoff time was decided. It was decided because this was the time at which it was decreed that nobody could have been saved. We know now that this isn't true. The cutoff time wasn't there to prevent us second-guessing individual triage decisions; it was there to deny that any such decisions could have been made at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The police must have observed drinking and were trying to prove alcohol played a part but they seem to have went about it in a stupid way that discredited their case Yep. As far as I'm aware, no one disputes that there were large groups of fans attempting to gain entry around kick off. Fans who, for whatever reason (I don't think alcohol needs to be relevant) arrived at the ground too late to gain entry for kick off. The game should have been delayed. These fans decided that they didn't want to miss any action, so pushed those in front of them to speed up the entry process. The Taylor Report is very clear on this. In my view some officers, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the drunken element in the crowd. There certainly was such an element. There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush. But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all anxious to gain entry. There was no criticism of the crowd by any of the witnesses in the period up to 2.30 pm or even 2.35 pm. What happened then was not a sudden deterioration in the mood or sobriety of those assembled there. No doubt those coming behind would have had more to drink and would have included the unruly minority. But the crisis developed because this very large crowd became packed into a confined turnstile area and its very density hampered its passage through the turnstiles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardinal Richelieu Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Sorry seems to be the hardest word. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-58pQrZ7Pas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Getting into why medical assistance was given to one person over another isn't particularly helpful. Paramedics had difficult decisions to make with so many people injured and a large crowd adding to the confusion of the situation. What made it even more difficult was the police refusing the 41 ambulances that were sitting outside into the ground. Only one ambulance made it to the Leppings Lane end by 3.30pm that day while Liverpool supporters were left to try and help the dead and dying on their own. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Like the police did when doctoring 164 statements? Well, no. But that's the point. Can you point me to any quote from any Liverpool fan or supporters association, where they have demanded answers from the Liverpool fans to blame for this tragedy? Consistently, they have chosen to attack only one element of the problem. And that's the issue many people have with them. Bias and an unwillingness to face facts they don't like. Once again, this is standard behaviour for these threads. Whataboutery. No one is suggesting the police were blameless. Absolutely no one. Also, no one is suggesting that an inquiry isn't the right thing to happen, or that such behaviour from the police force isn't horrendous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 it's still irrelevant when considering the events of the day though. no one died because the coroner made 3:15 the cut off time for his inquiry which is what a lot of thick people seem to be taking from this. i've already seen a few people saying "50 odd people" could have lived as if emergency services downed tools at quarter past. A lot of thick people like the authors of the independent report? From page 14 of today's release, with emphasis added by me (which can be found here: http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf): The medical evidence from pathologists who had conducted post mortem examinations on the deceased was central in establishing the picture of an unvarying pattern of death within a few minutes of crushing. This evidence was the basis for the assertion by the Coroner and others that the outcome was predetermined from an early stage for all who died. This underpinned the imposition of the 3.15pm cut-off on the generic inquest and the repeated assumption that the emergency services’ response could not have helped. The Panel’s access to all of the relevant records has confirmed that the notion of a single, unvarying and rapid pattern of death in all cases is unsustainable. Some of those who died did so after a significant period of unconsciousness during which they might have been able to be resuscitated, or conversely may have succumbed to a new event such as inappropriate positioning. The takeaway from this isn't "medical person X let people die." It is, "the original enquiry said that anything after 3:15pm was irrelevant to whether or not people lived or died - this has now been shown to be false." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 But that's not why the 3:15pm cutoff time was decided. It was decided because this was the time at which it was decreed that nobody could have been saved. We know now that this isn't true. The cutoff time wasn't there to prevent us second-guessing individual triage decisions; it was there to deny that any such decisions could have been made at all. That just about covers it. The 3:15pm time was used as an excuse to prevent any sort of investigation into the culpability of the emergency services. The importance of the time didn't lie with individual cases - obviously not everyone could reasonably have been treated or saved - but with the organisational failings that should have been investigated but weren't. The fabrication surrounding that particular time meant that the authorities could say "They were all dead anyway, move along, nothing to see here". That quite simply wasn't true. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What made it even more difficult was the police refusing the 41 ambulances that were sitting outside into the ground. Only one ambulance made it to the Leppings Lane end by 3.30pm that day while Liverpool supporters were left to try and help the dead and dying on their own. Doesn't matter - according to the partisans on here like T_S_A_R and Jim McLean's Ghost, anything after 3:15pm is still irrelevant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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