kiddy Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I think it depends on the football entity and how that is handled. If the SPL share and "goodwill" is transferred to the newco, then any footballing sanctions will transfer too. However, if the oldco is liquidated and the football entity dies with it, then the newco would indeed be a squeaky clean, genuinely, new club. However, I believe, that a new club would then need 3 years accounts to apply for an SFA membership, meaning they couldnt even play in Division 3 for at least 3 years. I wouldnt imagine the second scenario is all that likely, though. D&P have already made noises about the sale of assets having already been agreed to a newco in the event of the CVA being refused. But if their fans were to be believed, by the time the 3 years expired, a good few other diddy clubs will have gone to the wall. So they'd then be ahead of the game for readmittance, in their stead! After all, in their own words, "they don't do walking away". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Notice Rno Gattuso has made a "come and get me plea" of sorts to Rangers, who will no doubt be linked with a "sensational swoop". I Smell Shite 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Notice Rno Gattuso has made a "come and get me plea" of sorts to Rangers, who will no doubt be linked with a "sensational swoop". I Smell Shite 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archie guevara Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) If you ignore the comments at the bottom, this Sheffield United blog is quite interesting. It basically says that Green is a football gambler who interferes in the dressing room and manager's office then panics when it all gets wobbly. I reckon he's thinking that where Sheffield United may have been a good bet for promotion to the Premier League, Rangers are a cert for European football, if you put in enough cash. So buy the club for a song, pay off the hapless creditors and then buy in some talent to get to the quarters of the Champions League. Good idea. It worked for David Murray and Dick Advocaat, didn't it? edited for typos Edited May 14, 2012 by archie guevara 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 If they are using the "Miller Time" model, then as I understand it , the creditors will have the option of accepting a CVA or getting nothing as Rangers assets will be transferred to NEWCO and will be untouchable. Its not quite that simple, I dont think. If the CVA is rejected and the oldco liquidated, then the creditors of the oldco get the shares in the newco that the oldco holds. What that means in practical terms, though, I have no idea!! The BTC applies to the old co which will have come out of administration through the CVA. In this respect newco can't be liable. I hope I am wrong. edited for grammar I read something the other day that implied that, even after an agreed CVA, other debts can still come up The CVA does not necessarily provide for the dissolution of the company and, even if the proposal provides that the company ceases to exist after the successful completion of the arrangement, at any period within 20 years following dissolution the company may be resurrected and placed into liquidation by a creditor in the event that a contingent or unknown liability were to be pursued I guess then, that the above scenario would come into effect again 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) If you ignore the comments at the bottom, this Sheffield United blog is quite interesting. It basically says that Green is a football gambler who interferes in the dressing room and manager's office then panics when it all gets wobbly. I reckon he's thinking that where Sheffield United may have been a good bet for promotion to the Premier League, Rangers are a cert for European football, if you put in enough cash. So buy the club for a song, pay off the hapless creditors and then buy in some talent to get to the quarters of the Champions League. Good idea. It worked for David Murray and Dick Advocaat, didn't it? edited for typos I simply cannot believe that this Green character has ANY footballing grand plan here. I find it impossible to believe that he's been sitting looking at this, and knowing the as yet unresolved situation with the BTC and EBTs, SFA and SPL sanctions.... is looking at this as a fantastic sporting opportunity and has Rangers FC - the footballing institution at heart. If him and his 'global consortium' were interested in a footballing project that could build to glory and riches - why not buy Portsmouth and build them up back to the EPL? I see this Green chap, and all I can see is a Milan Mandaric, Reg Brearley, Angelo Massoni, or some other well-dodgy chancer. What's his angle? Where's the dollar signs? This has fcuk-all to do with Champions League glory. I could see the motivation from Paul Murray's side.... I smell massive amounts of excrement here. Edited May 14, 2012 by pozbaird 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor E Sheep Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 "we all live in an Orange submarine, a cheating submarine, a cheating submarine" "We all live in a Whyte submarine a dodging submarine, a dodging submarine" "We all live in a Blue Knight submarine, a denial submarine, a denial submarine" "We all live in a Green submarine, a sinking submarine, a sinking submarine" Sorry, poor first post. .............. I'll get me coat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomad-83 Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Surely Green can't adopt the Bill Miller model of the hybrid Newcomer and remedying the old & new companies. He says they will go down the liquidation route when the CVA fails. Effectively they lose all history because they are a completely new entity but will continue to cheat in a new guise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin M Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 If him and his 'global consortium' were interested in a footballing project that could build to glory and riches - why not buy Portsmouth and build them up back to the EPL? The money required to make Portsmouth a contender for regular Champions League participation is way beyond the means of Green and co. The money required to make Rangers a contender for regular Champions League participation is, well, whatever it takes to get a newco formed and up and running. It also buys a ticket to a share in regular trophies that will keep tens of thousands of people enjoying the "glory". There may be some sanctions that will hinder Rangers for a year or two, but in the relatively short term, they will be "back" in the SPL occupying one of the top 2 places. The other clubs have made it perfectly clear that they are now dependent on that being the structure of the game. It's relatively pish compared to what the truly rich can achieve, but everyone finds their level. Of course, Green and whoever is behind him may be incapable of attaining even that level of success, but for people of that level of wealth with an interest in football, it's not a bad endeavour. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Surely Green can't adopt the Bill Miller model of the hybrid Newcomer and remedying the old & new companies. He says they will go down the liquidation route when the CVA fails. Effectively they lose all history because they are a completely new entity but will continue to cheat in a new guise. Why would Green not be able to do it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor E Sheep Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I'd agree that Green is aiming to go down the Newco route, if he and his 20 backers were serious about a CVA I'm sure they could have come up with more than £500k each. I suspect the £8.5m is the minimum that the Dynamic Duo would accept as a bid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymores Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) Surely Green can't adopt the Bill Miller model of the hybrid Newcomer and remedying the old & new companies. He says they will go down the liquidation route when the CVA fails. Effectively they lose all history because they are a completely new entity but will continue to cheat in a new guise. I thought precisely this when I saw the papers say if CVA fails then he will follow "Bill Miller's incubator plan" - it's not the same as the CVA attempt is exhausted and it is a pre-package liquidation. We're being fed tripe in the hope nobody asks the history question this shot around. Edited May 14, 2012 by Claymores 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I simply cannot believe that this Green character has ANY footballing grand plan here. I find it impossible to believe that he's been sitting looking at this, and knowing the as yet unresolved situation with the BTC and EBTs, SFA and SPL sanctions.... is looking at this as a fantastic sporting opportunity and has Rangers FC - the footballing institution at heart. If him and his 'global consortium' were interested in a footballing project that could build to glory and riches - why not buy Portsmouth and build them up back to the EPL? to be fair that's like saying "do you want to buy the Marina with the broken head gasket, or the Lada that's a Category A write off, and try and drive away from the garage?" what's in it for Green is £ from the sale of playing and real estate assets, and possibly selling the rights to the Rangers "brand" to whichever of the three new factional FC United of Rangers emerge from the debris. His statement in the paper is riddled with qualifications, loopholes and get outs. If he is interested in staying at all, it will be liquidation & newco that he's aiming at with the hope of favourable treatment from the SPL. His business history and experience of companies in receivership tells you little else. He's only going to hang around for as long as there is money to be made for him and his shadowy "investors" (assuming they actually exist and have money- his reluctance to name names triggers my cynical gland). He'll spend awhile looking at the books and seeing if there is some easy money to be made. If there isn't, he'll walk away citing SFA sanctions / fan hostility/ "I didn't realise how bad it was" type excuses, leaving H&D to plug the industrial blender into the wall. Everyone knows already that the prospect of Rangers agreeing a CVA in early June, is similar to the prospects of a lone Fokker triplane, in a dogfight with a squadron of Eurofighters. My suspicion is that Green will have walked away by the end of the month for one of these reasons. And, after a final self-publicising spasm of "protest" from Oddball Kennedy and P. Murray, some posthoc "I knew Green was a wrong'un all along" from Traynor, an on-air meltdown at the injustice of it all from Chic, the club will be gone. There will be a Rangers newco next season but most likely in SFL 3 having gone through the foreshortened application process in the summer. Liquidation means very little room for manoeuvre for the authorities and those SPL clubs who haven't bothered making a budget for the scenario where Rangers don;t exist have only themselves to blame if they hit financial turbulence. It's not like they haven't had fair warning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) The money required to make Portsmouth a contender for regular Champions League participation is way beyond the means of Green and co. The money required to make Rangers a contender for regular Champions League participation is, well, whatever it takes to get a newco formed and up and running. It also buys a ticket to a share in regular trophies that will keep tens of thousands of people enjoying the "glory". There may be some sanctions that will hinder Rangers for a year or two, but in the relatively short term, they will be "back" in the SPL occupying one of the top 2 places. The other clubs have made it perfectly clear that they are now dependent on that being the structure of the game. It's relatively pish compared to what the truly rich can achieve, but everyone finds their level. Of course, Green and whoever is behind him may be incapable of attaining even that level of success, but for people of that level of wealth with an interest in football, it's not a bad endeavour. That's as maybe - but I still don't see Green being here for the time it would take to even get Rangers up to Champions League participation and trousering regular trophies again. All I can see is that he must have his eye on a fast buck somehow. Call me cynical (just don't call me Shirley). As I said, I could understand the Paul Murray involvement, but this? I understand that it appears Rangers are available on the cheap - but that is smoke and mirrors. There's a massive amount of financial uncertainty behind the seemingly cheap and cheerful down payment. Whyte's down payment was a quid. He engineered a dodgy Ticketus deal to get rid of the Lloyds 18 million, then I'm sure his plan was also to perform some sort of asset-stripping scam, set himself up as preferred creditor, the guy with the keys to Murray Park and the assets... something. I think his cunning plan has fallen down because he seriously under-estimated the glare of publicity, and the microscope that Rangers have been put under. Like Minty before him, he simply wants rid. I can only see Green being cut from the same cloth as Whyte. In fact, he might not even get as far as being Whyte MkII. More like Soccerball Bill MkII. Does anyone really believe he has been sitting looking at Rangers and is putting thoughts of the BTC and EBTs, European bans and SFA/SPL sanctions out of his mind, because he sees glory and European success ahead? I don't buy it. Does anyone? Edited May 14, 2012 by pozbaird 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Another Rangers boycott the SPL clubs thread on RangersMedia. Get ready for the Rangers backlash!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismcarab Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Green is already quoted as saying he will make decisions that the fans won't like and that its a business. Does anyone know if it is possible to propose the CVA to creditors that includes a hypothetical figure based on the sale of the top players/earners to balance the deficit? Perhaps thats part of his offer to creditors, that each player has a minimum 'acceptable' value and if/when they are offered the money, they are bound by this offer to sell players to increase the pence in the pound to creditors. That could be a way for him to renegotiate with the players too, in effect changing the minimum release fee clause in their contracts? If the £8.5 million is used as a base calculator, then the amount of pence in the pound will only go up when they sell, by enough or by how much would then be one of our famous 'unknowns'. Hoping someone will post to tell me this is not possible because of some legal reason to put my mind at ease. Last thing I want is to see this lot wriggle free in any way, shape or form. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) Taken from The Scotsman: http://www.scotsman....ngers-1-2292656 Mr Green, 59, revealed yesterday that the possibility of leading a bid for Rangers emerged on 15 February – the day after the club was placed in administration by Mr Whyte after a court battle with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC) over unpaid tax and National Insurance contributions. "I was approached by a stockbroker who was a representative of a Singaporean family interested in looking at Rangers," he said. "They asked if I was prepared to get involved. "I said 'No, I'm an old man, I've retired and I'm just breeding racehorses, I don't want to get involved'. That was on 15 February. A week later, they came back and said they'd really like to get me involved. So I started to look. Okay, so Green was approached by a family that was interested in Rangers, he said no because he was retired. "There are 20 individuals and families who have pledged support. There are investors from the UK, from the Middle East, from Asia and from the Far East. That support is evidenced by cash in a bank account that the administrators have seen sight of. The money is ring-fenced exclusively for the purchase of Rangers."However, Mr Green declined to give details of who was in the consortium." From one family, we are now up to 20 individuals and families from across the globe. "I can assure you there will not be any investor who owns more than 15 per cent. I don't believe any one person should own a football club. 20 people, none owning more than 15%. As I've said before, a 15% stake in any company is no incentive to invest whatsoever, only as a revenue generator for dividends, let alone in a company with 20 different owners. And who the hell would do that with a company in serious financial trouble with zero chance of ever paying out a dividend again in its current situation? More to the point, what's all this "I don't believe any one person should own a football club" shit anyway? I thought you said you were buying it on the behalf of other people, so it doesn't matter what you think! Unless of course you are lying through your teeth, there are no 20 investors, and all you're interested in is asset stripping before liquidation - something you have a splendid track record of across various businesses in the UK. "I want a model here that when I leave, the club is stabilised." A corpse filled with embalming fluid is stabilised. But it is still a corpse. "In what we believe is the unlikely event of a CVA not being accepted....[but later] "We can't be confident [about the CVA], but my upbringing and view of life is that something is better than nothing. If they turn down the cash that is in the pot, then the alternative is they will get nothing." One minute you don't think it likely a CVA will be turned down, the next you are saying you aren't confident about getting one. Then you wonder why this all sounds like making it up as you go along because you've no real intention of "saving Rangers"? Also, your touting of the Newco route if the CVA is rejected is a nonsense. You can't do a Bill Miller "hive down" because that requires a CVA to work in the first place. If you start as a complete Newco, Rangers cease to exist along with their place in the SPL with no carry over into the SFL and having to wait 3 years in the Juniors/EOS to get the SFA membership before applying to rejoin. As for Ticketus and HMRC getting "nothing", if Rangers are forcibly liquidated via court order, the creditors will get at least 60p in the £1 at worse - but that is far better than the 4p to 5p being touted by every Rangers suitor up to and including you. Jog on! Edited May 14, 2012 by WaffenThinMint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araminta Moonbeam QC Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Admins admit CVA 'may not be possible'. Who knew? ok, who had today for the collapse of the Green bid? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) Admins admit CVA 'may not be possible'. Who knew? ok, who had today for the collapse of the Green bid? I didn't have today for Green to run for the hills. I give it the same amount of time it took Soccerball Bill. A week - ten days. Max. Edited May 14, 2012 by pozbaird 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Call me simple, but I too don't understand the "creditors will get nothing from liquidation" line.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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