Jim McLean's Ghost Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Has anyone read the dissenting decision yet? Or indeed, the majority decision? The dissenting judgement makes very interesting reading. I've read both. My interpretation is the majority opinion cites case law and deals in facts where as the dissenting opinion is full of general disdain for the Rangers witnesses and the brazenness of the scheme, the judge seems almost amazed that the concept could be legal and takes a dim view on previous judgements used to support the majority. The dissent is definitely a moral indictment of Rangers and Murray but doesn't back up the opinion with strong legal references. Which was actually the point since dissenting opinions have no legal power the judge says she will comment on the operation of he scheme and show how it doesn't meet the legal requirements of the previous case law cited by the majority. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kincardine Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Personally, I think Rangers are going to emerge stronger and more unified from this mess. I think that there is a sense of purpose and optimism amongst the support. I also think that going to a broader ownership model is a plus and I am cautiously optimistic that Green is putting in place some high quality management. I think that there may come a time when certain clubs will; regret their actions over the past 6 months. Paquis, you are dead right. Something about this season has really brought us together and there's a good feeling about the place. You have to up your post count - you speak a lot of sense! f**k all that....You're 52?? I had you down as ages with me! Now i do feel fucking old!!!! 53 in a month. I'm just a touch taller than you so you couldn't see my bald patch! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killingfloorman Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Hey let me be honest. Would I rather Rangers were in the top league on merit and admin hadn't happened? f**k yes. Would I prefer a CL gig or a Europa cup gig to a slot in the Ramsdens Cup? f**k yes again. However, admin has brought about 2 things. 1. A bit of financial sanity. OK so some may challenge that we're still overpaying for players but look at the EBT list. I mentioned it before but what we paid players was utterly insane. £370K EBT plus wages for Egil Østenstad? That was fucking bonkers. I'm taller than him and, at 52, about as mobile as when we signed him. I'd have done as good a job on even half his dosh. Even a quarter. This is the REAL Ibrox scandal. 2. This season has really galvanised The Bears. Yes, we have turned up in numbers and that is to our credit. More importantly, we're inteerested in who we're playing next; how the opposition are doing; how the league looks, and how the young players are performing. We are all keen on the likes of Aird, Mackay, McLeod and Naismith to go out and play for the jersey and they have all responded brilliantly. In 40+ years of supporting Rangers I have never known us to be so keen on just football, respecting our opposition and backing our weans. I'd prefer that we'd not put ourselves in this position but I am absolutely certain that our fans and our players have been a credit to us so far. Fair dos. All credit to you. Just one question (that probably isn't fair to ask at this time in the wee small hours, especially tonight! But...whatever). Has this whole episode given you any insight at all into the fact that: Many,many Scottish football fans don't like your team/club/institution? That, has nothing whatsoever to do with a liking for 'the other lot'? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No8. Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 53 in a month. I'm just a touch taller than you so you couldn't see my bald patch! Fcking ruined my night 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 As I keep reading this judgement, the SPL's case against Rangers grows weaker and weaker. From the majority perspective, they have found that players received loans not wages. What this means is that Rangers had no obligation to submit these contracts to the SFA or the SPL because they would not have been considered contracts for participation at football. But Heidi Poon does not help the SPL case either: From page 120 (minority decision): XVI) For bonus payments to the footballing employees, there appeared to be aschedule agreed for the start of each season and lodged with SFA as a matterof normal practice. The bonus entitlement should be the same for eachplayer in the team squad in accordance with the schedule agreed. It wouldappear that the bonus and appearance money for players with a sub-trust hadbeen paid via the trust mechanism while other players without a sub-trustreceived their entitlement through payroll. So what Poon is saying is that the SFA knew how much was being paid contractually and that this was declared to the SFA. The issue, therefore, is not that there were two contracts but rather how money was being paid (i.e. to a sub-trust or by payroll). No that doesn't really help Rangers and it wasn't the point she was making. Long sections of he dissent are devoted to the idea that the whole EBTS scheme s a sham with numerous example of payroll and EBTs being used interchangeably. The bonus thing was another example. The whole opinion scolds HMRC lawyers for not taking he argument that the scheme was a sham instead they agreed that the payments to EBTs were loans. In some ways the judge is making the case that HMRC failed to make, attacking the payments as a whole instead of concentrating on the side-letters and their implications of a contractual payment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paquis Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 No that doesn't really help Rangers and it wasn't the point she was making. Long sections of he dissent are devoted to the idea that the whole EBTS scheme s a sham with numerous example of payroll and EBTs being used interchangeably. The bonus thing was another example. The whole opinion scolds HMRC lawyers for not taking he argument that the scheme was a sham instead they agreed that the payments to EBTs were loans. In some ways the judge is making the case that HMRC failed to make, attacking the payments as a whole instead of concentrating on the side-letters and their implications of a contractual payment. I understand what you are saying. But whether or not the EBT scheme was a sham is not relevant to the dual contracts issue. Her argument does not help the SPL case that dual contracts existed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kincardine Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) Fcking ruined my night No! Just take heart. Being 53 needn't make you a broken-down old wreck! There is life in one's 6th decade. Edited to add: No 8 and I met when I came up for the Motherwell game - hence the banter. Edited November 21, 2012 by Kincardine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No8. Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Has this whole episode given you any insight at all into the fact that: Many,many Scottish football fans don't like your team/club/institution? That, has nothing whatsoever to do with a liking for 'the other lot'? Can i answer that? What this has shown me is that many SPL fans so a chance of breaking up the Duopoly and grabbed it with both hands...Nothing to do with Sporting integrity or justice. They saw their chance and took it. I cant honestly say i blame them either as it MIGHT be for the betterment of the game as a whole. At the moment i cant quite understand why the 11 'other' clubs have not used their new found power to try and redress the financial imbalance. Why they have not voted through the ideas they have always claimed to hold re. the TV money...Re. the gate money etc.Was a deal struck by all the SPL clubs that these new found powers wouldn't be used? As for 'many many scottish football fans' you mean the few hundred who have posted on this thread...Nothing new there but what has shocked me is how welcoming Scottish football fans have been around the country...How welcoming clubs have been and the new towns we are visiting. How much fans in the SFL 3 have enjoyed visiting Ibrox and being welcomed by the vast majority of our fans...How we have all sat and drank together before and after games. It has been a real eye opener and why we must not forget this come reconstruction talks...The SPL can go f**k themself...The power has very much shifted and we must remain fully behind the SFL clubs and push through what they want and what is best for ALL in Scottish Football. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik's tongue Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Yay No8's back in the game! Only he could paint RFC as the mother Theresa of global fitba. Welcome back ya banger PS. Kincardine - The big threed must stay open 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.j Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 f**k this, 2 greenies for No8 tonight, I need to get some rest. Good night Scottish football fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Republic Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I wonder if Daly,Thomson,McGillivan,McConville (you know the guy that bairnforever put great faith on) and all the rest will have the good grace to apologise or will they just crawl under a stone together as the bigots they are. I think they'll wait until after the appeal before making any rash decisions , if I were them I'd go down the ' Rainjurz route '..... Threats , itimidation and violence 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendarroch Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 At the moment i cant quite understand why the 11 'other' clubs have not used their new found power to try and redress the financial imbalance. Why they have not voted through the ideas they have always claimed to hold re. the TV money...Re. the gate money etc.Was a deal struck by all the SPL clubs that these new found powers wouldn't be used? As things stand in the SPL there is an 11-1 voting structure required for change. At a recent meeting it was Aberdeen who sided with Celtic to ensure no 11-1 was possible. Integrity they call it apparently. Much more trouble to come for the SPL - Gilmour was gum-bumping last week about how the 11-1 structure must be discarded. We can only begin to imagine how he felt about Aberdeen's action. And, of course, the SPL now needs a large number of SFL clubs to break rank if their proposed SPL 1 & 2 is to take off - the very clubs that Gilmour slammed over the summer. The very clubs that Hutton at Raith so vocally declared were being bullied and blackmailed by the SPL. Raith's situation is an interesting one - not least because Aberdeen recently voted with rasellik to maintain the status quo. Despite the Aberdeen fans financially supporting Raith to ensure 'integrity' in the game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik's tongue Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Rangers 1 Her Majesty 0 Mixed feelings surely from fans of the Queens eleven? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendarroch Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 PS. Kincardine - The big threed must stay open Indeed. Not least because I'm far from finished taunting WKR Bond. It's been a c**t of a day for him. Firstly he announced this: "I'm doing my bit to keep what angles of the investigation I can up-front and centre. It's just that P&B isn't really the place, and WRK isn't the persona, to be doing that and expect to be taken seriously by those I'm in contact with." Hours later it turns out it didn't matter at all if his fellow covert agents were being taken seriously by anyone at all. And then, to top it all off, his beloved hoops got horsed. Bless.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) Yay No8's back in the game! Only he could paint RFC as the mother Theresa of global fitba. Welcome back ya banger PS. Kincardine - The big threed must stay open Its good to see The Rangers supporters back in force despite not actively posting for weeks on end. I'm sure we'll have a good chuckle next time they scuttle off when the next bombshell hits Edited November 21, 2012 by Fotbawmad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kincardine Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) Has this whole episode given you any insight at all into the fact that: Many,many Scottish football fans don't like your team/club/institution? That, has nothing whatsoever to do with a liking for 'the other lot'? Killing fair question and one I won't shy away from. I'm not sure if my reply will be totally coherent but I'm willing to give it a go. It's too late to give polished sentences but here are a few thoughts: 1. Folk who don't like Rangers are fine. I don't automatically think that, thus, they support. 'the other lot'. 2. I don't belong to the 'no-one likes us, we don't care' brigade. I am firmly of the view that there is a residue of fondness for how much Rangers have contributed to Scottish football. 3. I mentioned a few posts ago that I am in my 6th decade. This means that I started going to Ibrox in the 60s. My father went in the 40s and my grandfather in the 20s. They were used to players who'd give anything to play for Rangers and for Scotland and f**k any idea of EBTs. 4. I'm a Scot and Rangers are a Scottish team. I hate the idea of preferring England to Scotland and I don't like us thinking about moving to England. 5. I do acknowledge that something 'wrong' happened over the last 25 years. Part of this has been financial - and we've seen the effects of that. Part of this has been to make us a bit less Scottish. 6. This season has, for the fans, been one that has changed attitudes just a bit - and I hope it continues. We've had a fair few young Scots do us proud and we Bears respect that. 7. My desire is that we continue to encourage young Scottish footballers and become a successful Scottish team playing in a Scottish league. I hate the idea of looking to be implanted in some 'league of europe' or in the EPL. Sorry if it's not the well-worked reply that you'd have wanted but it's the best I can do! Edited November 21, 2012 by Kincardine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendarroch Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Rangers 1 Her Majesty 0 Mixed feelings surely from fans of the Queens eleven? Her Maj took one for her team. Obviously. Speaking of majesty - did you hear the plastic nutter on Radio Clyde last night? He managed to get as far as "Rangers win the tax case...I knew the establishment would have their fingerprints all over this..." They cut him off - giggling openly all the while. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik's tongue Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Indeed. Not least because I'm far from finished taunting WKR Bond. It's been a c**t of a day for him. Firstly he announced this: "I'm doing my bit to keep what angles of the investigation I can up-front and centre. It's just that P&B isn't really the place, and WRK isn't the persona, to be doing that and expect to be taken seriously by those I'm in contact with." Hours later it turns out it didn't matter at all if his fellow covert agents were being taken seriously by anyone at all. And then, to top it all off, his beloved hoops got horsed. Bless.... And I dropped my iphone and the screen's aw cracked tae f**k c**t of a day WRK will be back to joust with you tomorrow, I'm sure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik's tongue Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Her Maj took one for her team. Obviously. Speaking of majesty - did you hear the plastic nutter on Radio Clyde last night? He managed to get as far as "Rangers win the tax case...I knew the establishment would have their fingerprints all over this..." They cut him off - giggling openly all the while. Aye Pretty sure that was that halfwit Tommy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killingfloorman Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Killing fair question and one I won't shy away from. I'm not sure if my reply will be totally coherent but I'm willing to give it a go. It's too late to give polished sentences but here are a few thoughts: 1. Folk who don't like Rangers are fine. I don't automatically think that, thus, they support. 'the other lot'. 2. I don't belong to the 'no-one likes us, we don't care' brigade. I am firmly of the view that there is a residue of fondness for how much Rangers have contributed to Scottish football. 3. I mentioned a few posts ago that I am in my 6th decade. This means that I started going to Ibrox in the 60s. My father went in the 40s and my grandfather in the 20s. They were used to players who'd give anything to play for Rangers and for Scotland and f**k any idea of EBTs. 4. I'm a Scot and Rangers are a Scottish team. I hate the idea of preferring England to Scotland and I don't like us thinking about moving to England. 5. I do acknowledge that something 'wrong' happened over the last 25 years. Part of this has been financial - and we've seen the effects of that. Part of this has been to make us a bit less Scottish. 6. This season has, for the fans, been one that has changed attitudes just a bit - and I hope it continues. We've had a fair few young Scots do us proud and we Bears respect that. 7. My desire is that we continue to encourage young Scottish footballers and become a successful Scottish team playing in a Scottish league. I hate the idea of looking to be implanted in some 'league of europe' or in the EPL. Sorry if it's not the well-worked reply that you'd have wanted but it's the best I can do! Thank you to both you and No 8 for your replies to the my question. I haven't been to any of your games this season and both of you have. I'm glad that you are seeing positives for all in the experience. Cheers KFM 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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