Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[Republic]

As things stand in the SPL there is an 11-1 voting structure required for change.

At a recent meeting it was Aberdeen who sided with Celtic to ensure no 11-1 was possible.

Integrity they call it apparently.

Much more trouble to come for the SPL - Gilmour was gum-bumping last week about how the 11-1 structure must be discarded. We can only begin to imagine how he felt about Aberdeen's action.

And, of course, the SPL now needs a large number of SFL clubs to break rank if their proposed SPL 1 & 2 is to take off - the very clubs that Gilmour slammed over the summer. The very clubs that Hutton at Raith so vocally declared were being bullied and blackmailed by the SPL.

Raith's situation is an interesting one - not least because Aberdeen recently voted with rasellik to maintain the status quo. Despite the Aberdeen fans financially supporting Raith to ensure 'integrity' in the game.

The SPL has always been a self preservation league , it'll more than likely still be the same when The Rainjurz gain promotion (if accepted) . I don't understand why Rangers fans get so upset at the ' integrity' claims from SPL chairmen. They voted no because they had no choice , the majority if their support wanted a no vote. The chairmen obliged . So what if the chairmen used a bit of 'spin' to disguise the fact that their support had them over a barrel.

Why does it bother you so much ?

[Bendarroch]

7. My desire is that we continue to encourage young Scottish footballers and become a successful Scottish team playing in a Scottish league. I hate the idea of looking to be implanted in some 'league of europe' or in the EPL.

It would be to scottish football's long term benefit if both Rangers and the plastic headed for pastures new. The distorted reality of a competition with two clubs dwarfing the remaining competition is clear for all to see and has been for decades.

I'm firmly of the opinion that Scottish football would flourish in our absence. Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and Dundee Utd. (for example) would all have spectacular gains in attendance's if provided with a genuine chance at winning the championship.

Perhaps these clubs might even manage their finances better than we did and invest for the future to provide a sustainable way of improving the quality of our game as a whole.

With both Green and Liewell now openly referencing upcoming plans for Euro/regional leagues, I think the changes will be upon us sooner rather than later.

[Guest Kincardine]

The SPL has always been a self preservation league , it'll more than likely still be the same when The Rainjurz gain promotion (if accepted) . I don't understand why Rangers fans get so upset at the ' integrity' claims from SPL chairmen. They voted no because they had no choice , the majority if their support wanted a no vote. The chairmen obliged . So what if the chairmen used a bit of 'spin' to disguise the fact that their support had them over a barrel.

Why does it bother you so much ?

Can I have a go at this?

No problem with a 'no' vote and if the SPL had left it at that then fine. We broke the rules and should suffer the consequences.

Three things stick in my craw:

1. The whole 'Armageddon' scenario. This was f**k all to do with us and shame on SPL fans for not giving Doncaster pelters for it.

2. Doncaster and Regan trying to fast-track us in to SFL1. This was so disrespectful to the clubs in the lower tiers.

3. The bullying over TV rights. Sure, vote us out. Don't then come after our media rights. Just get to f**k and play your own league and sell its rights on its own merits.

In sum, we've no problem getting voted out of the SPL. Having then the SPL trying to prop up their league by selling us? Not on.

[Bendarroch]

The SPL has always been a self preservation league , it'll more than likely still be the same when The Rainjurz gain promotion (if accepted) . I don't understand why Rangers fans get so upset at the ' integrity' claims from SPL chairmen. They voted no because they had no choice , the majority if their support wanted a no vote. The chairmen obliged . So what if the chairmen used a bit of 'spin' to disguise the fact that their support had them over a barrel.

Why does it bother you so much ?

Because it was a hypocrisy that even Stevie Wonder could see. And because it was a self-defeating hypocrisy at that.

Their abdication of responsibility for decision making to their fans (because that was an easy out) was disgraceful and cowardly in equal measure.

I don't believe they will listen again as the SPL and SFL square up to one another over the plans for change to league structures as they roll out over the coming months.

They wont listen because integrity has left a very bad taste in their collective mouth.

[Guest Kincardine]

It would be to scottish football's long term benefit if both Rangers and the plastic headed for pastures new. The distorted reality of a competition with two clubs dwarfing the remaining competition is clear for all to see and has been for decades.

I'm firmly of the opinion that Scottish football would flourish in our absence. Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and Dundee Utd. (for example) would all have spectacular gains in attendance's if provided with a genuine chance at winning the championship.

I do disagree with you - but without rancour.

For me, Scotland is our midden and we should be looking to flourish here rather than move elsewhere.

[Republic]

Because it was a hypocrisy that even Stevie Wonder could see. And because it was a self-defeating hypocrisy at that.

Their abdication of responsibility for decision making to their fans (because that was an easy out) was disgraceful and cowardly in equal measure.

I don't believe they will listen again as the SPL and SFL square up to one another over the plans for change to league structures as they roll out over the coming months.

They wont listen because integrity has left a very bad taste in their collective mouth.

O.K , but Rangers were a leading force in the setup of the SPL , your club helped create the monster and up until it turned on you , there were no voices of concern about it's motives.

Some of the tatics and spin used by minty during his tenure would make some of the SPL chairmen blush . Rangers fans complaining about the hypocrisy of other clubs chairmen just doesn't make sense.

[Bendarroch]

I do disagree with you - but without rancour.

For me, Scotland is our midden and we should be looking to flourish here rather than move elsewhere.

I don't think the club will move from Ibrox - just in case you misunderstood me. I do think our club will be playing in a different league set-up sooner rather than later.

If we stay, of course we will flourish again - this current hiccup wont last too much longer. But, the reality of that means we'll just see two giant clubs hoovering up all the silverware and revenue as far into the future as you care to imagine. As we've had now for decades.

Did you watch any of the plastics v benfica match? I seen the plastics support in numbers voting with their wallets, because they (rightly) have chosen to spend their money on games of interest. Dwindling crowds at darkhead for the one-horse race championship are inevitable in the face of competition for their money when offered alternatives like Barca to watch instead.

Better for all that we move on. IMHO. And fast.

[Bendarroch]

O.K , but Rangers were a leading force in the setup of the SPL , your club helped create the monster and up until it turned on you , there were no voices of concern about it's motives.

Some of the tatics and spin used by minty during his tenure would make some of the SPL chairmen blush . Rangers fans complaining about the hypocrisy of other clubs chairmen just doesn't make sense.

You shouldn't assume that Rangers supporters don't recognise our own clubs involvement in the brutal state of the Scottish game. And neither should you think that Murray didn't have dissenting voices criticising him from within.

Not that it mattered much in the final analysis. He simply ignored any and all when it did not suit his ego.

[weirdcal]

Quick q, as I stopped trying to catch up about 10 pages ago.

Has it been pointed out that the BTC was included in the CVA as at that point HMRC had charged rangers that amount and they had appealed. Ie the charge stood until decision and therefore had to be included?

Lot of people over looking the fact that this was brought about by the hmrc.

Secondly, did any money for the trusts come from rangers and if so how much?

Can BDO reclaim this as part of the liquidation process for the remaining creditors?

If the money has come from MIH and with their level of debt, is any rangers legend bricking it in case they go under?

[wunfellaff]

The Sun :lol:

RANGERS may have gone bust for no reason — after they won their £75million tax fight.

A tribunal sided with the former regime of ex-owner Sir David Murray in the long-running war with HMRC over employee benefit trust payments to top stars.

And last night furious fans’ groups insisted the Ibrox giants could have been SAVED if the ruling was issued earlier. Gers Supporters’ Association secretary John Macmillan said: “I’m angry it took so long. Who knows where we could have been if this decision was made before the club was sold.”

The hearing, dubbed the ‘Big Tax Case’, ended in January — but the findings had not yet been reached when Rangers plunged into administration in February.

It came after HMRC argued the EBT scheme offering loans to staff from 2001-10 was a tax-dodge scam.

The old Rangers was doomed to liquidation when HMRC snubbed a company voluntary arrangement deal to pay off creditors.

[flyingrodent]

God, this is hilarious. I guess nothing says "totally exonerated" quite like two-thirds of the judges allowing that, in principle, Rangers mostly didn't intentionally cheat the Treasury because, like, if you squint really hard at the word "loan", it could possibly mean "a massive cash gift that doesn't ever need to be repaid", except for the instances in which "loan" means "a massive cash gift that does need to be repaid, but won't ever be".

Slapstick stuff. Well, if you've ever wondered why you have to pay more than a third of your income to the government but Starbucks gets to trouser almost 100% of their bajillion-pound profits, wonder no longer. It's because paying tax is pretty much optional for them, but compulsory for you.

Edited November 21, 2012 by flyingrodent

[Double Jack D]

My initial reaction to this news was surprise and mild amusement that Rangers had actually won this case which was the major reason behind all the financial problems (if not the actual debt which killed them).

Now I feel pretty pissed off. Not because of the fact Rangers won, I couldn't really give a monkeys and the ruling doesn't affect the new Rangers one iota. No, I'm pissed off that we have a tax system in this country where if you are a lazy b*****d that can't be arsed working you benefit from it, big businesses have enough loopholes to get around paying it and the regular Joe Schmuch who gets out his bed and works a regular job foots the bill for it all.

Anyway, I cheer up again when I realise that Rangers may have went bust for thinking they were guilty rather than actually being guilty. The porn star was right!!

No wonder this country is f*cked.

It would be funny now if they still lost the SPL titles when they never had to hide the second contracts anyway.

[)typically]

Got to say some of the The rangers fans deserve their moment in the sun with this one. You know who you are. You have been a mix of WUM, moron, debater, deflector and c**t! Do have your moment.

All you rangers fans coming on, when you didn't have the balls of your fellow bears to see this out and continue posting? You are glory hunters!

Should this thread be closed? Of course not.Is it a sweeping generalisation to suggest that this thread was all and only bout the EBTs? Of course it is.Should rangers fans maybe remember recent cases in the last year and sit tight til the appeal? Probably,

Am I surprised by today's verdict? Holy f**k I am, I didn't see this coming.

Its good to see The Rangers supporters back in force despite not actively posting for weeks on end. I'm sure we'll have a good chuckle next time they scuttle off when the next bombshell hits

This is nonsense. Most of us did keep posting, its just that we got bored sick of this thread. The thread which has now been proven to be drivel from start to finish (this post excepted).

[AES]

Have to say, that, given the glee which some posters (and I include myself) viewed the potential outcome of the FTT, I have to allow the RFC fans their day in the sun.

It does raise some serious questions about the performance of HMRC in all of this. Given that, even without the FTT going against them, RFC had a massive debt problem and would have been highly unlikely to have avoided administration and liquidation. However, the absence of an adverse FTT outcome would have made the sale of RFC a very different proposition. HMRC has had 9 months to make its decision known and many fans will feel that the delay in publishing its findings has put the club in a much worse position than it might otherwise have been.

[flyingrodent]

Have to say, that, given the glee which some posters (and I include myself) viewed the potential outcome of the FTT, I have to allow the RFC fans their day in the sun.

It does raise some serious questions about the performance of HMRC in all of this. Given that, even without the FTT going against them, RFC had a massive debt problem and would have been highly unlikely to have avoided administration and liquidation. However, the absence of an adverse FTT outcome would have made the sale of RFC a very different proposition. HMRC has had 9 months to make its decision known and many fans will feel that the delay in publishing its findings has put the club in a much worse position than it might otherwise have been.

Given that this case has dragged on for years, rather than months, and that Old Rangers spent a significant part of that time dragging its feet and saying "Eh, let me just go have a look for they documents, I'm sure they must be here somewhere" i.e. being deliberately obstructive, anyone related to the OldCo would have to have to be a shameless bullshitter with balls of pure brass to complain that HMRC were....

...Oh no, wait a minute. As you were.

[marty_j]

Serious questions guys:

Does this mean players/staff who received EBT payments must pay back these loans?

If so do any of Rangers fans know whan payments will be getting made - has it been documented anywhere?

Can liquidators go after these employees for money owed so they can give creditors more money?

When the EBTs were set up one assumes there was a payment schedule to get money back if it was a loan?

I apologise if it has been covered somewhere else on here - haven't been on for a few days and it has all obviously kicked off with HMRC case announcement.

Cheers

[scottxs]

Can't wait till the loans have to be re paid. C'mon souness and billy dodds. Cough up

[)typically]

Statement from MIH:

While MIH has at all times respected the privacy of the tax tribunal proceedings, a substantial quantity of confidential information relating to the case has become available for public consumption, stimulating considerable discussion and often ill informed debate.

We therefore formally request that the relevant authorities investigate how these sensitive details have been released so widely.

We have instructed our lawyers to retrospectively review online and printed publications relating to the case to identify whether legal redress is either appropriate or necessary.

Let me help you with that:

Rangers Tax Case Blog

[scottxs]

Now how about the wee tax case the 1 with the paye that started the ball rolling.

[)typically]

Serious questions guys:

Does this mean players/staff who received EBT payments must pay back these loans?

If so do any of Rangers fans know whan payments will be getting made - has it been documented anywhere?

Can liquidators go after these employees for money owed so they can give creditors more money?

When the EBTs were set up one assumes there was a payment schedule to get money back if it was a loan?

I apologise if it has been covered somewhere else on here - haven't been on for a few days and it has all obviously kicked off with HMRC case announcement.

Cheers

They dont have to repay them as payback seems to have been voluntary in the agreements. Even if they did pay back the money it seems to be the case that Rangers wont see it as the trust was independent of Rangers (oldco and newco) the money is owed to an independent offshore trust, presumably under the control of SDM in some way.