Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[saint john]

As loans due to be repaid on 1st Sept, Laxley are charging 15% over 6 months or 30% APR....Wonga rates!!

Is this really the best deal they could get!!!

Edited February 24, 2014 by saint john

[phasma ex machina]

Originally Posted by JK1872

Why? We have secured our loans and debts for years - we have yet to lose an asset. These loans will be paid back, so Edmiston House and the Albion car park are not in danger of being 'asset stripped'. As for the loan itself:

Easdale - no fee / interest on their 500k

Laxey - it has been clearly spelt out how the 15% will be repaid and when on their million.

How much would it cost to borrow 1.5 million from a bank just now, for a period of seven months? (if we could actually borrow it).

Now, I agree with you. We are a huge club, forced to play in a lower league, but regardless of how you, me or another 100k + Bears feel about that - the fact is at present we are, a lower league club. A lower league club that is paying SPL club wages to beat teams made up of part-timers. Our current wage is astronomical for the league we play in, but it's a subject that a lot of people would rather bury their heads in the sand about.

I can only reiterate what I said above, Wallace has his work cut out to change things around.

are you delusional? or just a plant? laxeys are being paid 30% pa for a secured loan. effectively the same as getting a mortgage, yet get the option of shares as repayment, at the lower of current price or future share price?if the shares go up they make a profit, and at the same time strengthen their group on our club. if they go down they can demand their money back(+15%), take control of our assets or take new shares at market rate(if lower than 26.5) thus again strengthening their grip on our club.

Go to a bank and ask what current mortgage rates are?c 3%. as for easdales, the no interest no fee is a propaganda tool?.if they are so kind to lend the money, why the need to secure it against property, when they know there will be cash flow to cover it in a few months, unless they hope there is a season ticket boycott and they get the keys to edmiston/albion?..wake up and smell the coffee, this is a deal that favours only the lenders.

as for wages, they are c30% of turnover. the league we play in is an irrelevance. football wages are not the cause of our financial black hole, look no further than the boardroom for that.

there are numerous bears who would have lent money at better rates than these terms, in the same context there are good bears who were prepared to work for the club at board level who would have worked for free, saving countless millions, that are slipping into the greasy palms of the current and recently departed board members

A rat I smell

OP join date 15/2/14 and 17 posts, don't think there will be many more

[mid-table]

How near the top of the 'Longest serving' is he in the 4 Scots Leagues?

Here is the list as of 1st January 2014, thanks to Loons Youth Team on the Sack Race thread.

Since then Ross Jack has gone, so he is now 7th longest serving manager out of the 42.

08/05/08 - Dick Campbell (Forfar Athletic)

21/01/09 - Ross Jack (Elgin City)

25/03/10 - Neil Lennon (Celtic)

27/05/10 - Paul Sheerin (Arbroath)

07/06/10 - Danny Lennon (St Mirren)

30/12/10 - Stuart McCall (Motherwell)

07/02/11 - Jim Duffy (Clyde)

16/05/11 - Ally McCoist (Rangers)

18/05/11 - Paul Hartley (Alloa Athletic)

18/05/11 - Derek Adams (Ross County)

31/05/11 - John Coughlin (East Stirlingshire)

07/10/11 - Jim McInally (Peterhead)

26/10/11 - Ian Little (Berwick Rangers)

04/12/11 - Greig McDonald (Stirling Albion)

21/03/12 - Jim Jefferies (Dunfermline Athletic)

15/05/12 - Mark Roberts (Ayr United)

17/05/12 - Stuart Garden (Montrose)

03/07/12 - Grant Murray (Raith Rovers)

17/07/12 - Martyn Corrigan (Stenhousemuir)

09/10/12 - Ray McKinnon (Brechin City)

22/10/12 - Stephen Aitken (Stranraer)

22/11/12 - Ian Murray (Dumbarton)

13/01/13 - Jim Chapman (Annan Athletic)

30/01/13 - Jackie McNamara (Dundee United)

30/01/13 - Alan Archibald (Partick Thistle)

22/02/13 - John Brown (Dundee)

28/02/13 - Gary Locke (Heart of Midlothian)

03/04/13 - Gary Holt (Falkirk)

03/04/13 - Alex Neil (Hamilton Academical)

07/04/13 - Derek McInnes (Aberdeen)

05/05/13 - James Ward (Albion Rovers)

10/06/13 - Tommy Wright (St Johnstone)

25/06/13 - Allan Johnston (Kilmarnock)

27/06/13 - Jim McIntyre (Queen of the South)

12/09/13 - John McGlynn (Livingston)

24/10/13 - Gary Bollan (Airdrie United)

12/11/13 - Terry Butcher (Hibernian)

25/11/13 - Gary Naysmith (East Fife)

30/11/13 - Jimmy Nicholl (Cowdenbeath)

04/12/13 - John Hughes (Inverness Caledonian Thistle)

13/12/13 - Kenny Shiels (Morton)

Vacant - Queen's Park

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Mainly due to the systematic tax dodging, I still think I find the old club far more repulsive than the new version, tbh.

“This was Sir David Murray’s way of putting it. It was a way of getting hold of players you otherwise couldn’t afford.

“So the last thing the club would do is say to a player: now, if you don’t like having remuneration trust we will pay you gross instead. It just couldn’t afford to do it. It wasn’t an option.”

This was willful, organised, brass necked, cheating. The new club's more a victim of circumstance and it's fans stupidity than anything else.

I'd go the other way, in all honesty. History is full of individuals, corporations, companies, even clubs( ) who have tried to gain unfair advantage over their competitors. The true shame, for me, is in the way that those involved in rangers' demise have conducted themselves throughout the substitution of a facsimile club in their place. From:

The dog-whistling soundbites of representatives. all the way from "we demand to know who these people are" through "rangers-itis" to the current moaning about officials,

The manipulation of their fanbase by urging to invest in "rangers" when the IPO was actually in the Holding Company - and look how that's turning out...

The threatening of those honest enough to state the truth and not buy into the whole club/company shite,

The supine compliance of the governing bodies over rangers' desire for continuance - nothing at all to do with the SFA Chief being up to his eyes in the EBT affair,

The pathetic behaviour of the tabloids in Scotland, who would rather buy into a lie than lose readers,

To the worst of the lot - the Horde, who are quite happy to joke about the businesses (and the Queen) robbed by the club, and deep-down aware that rangers admitted liabilty in EBT cases where evidence hadn't been shredded in time was available - yet continue to validate their sad little existences with cries of WATP and 54 titles. Because, as of the death of rangers, it was obvious to anyone that it was "the company, not the club". I refuse to believe any sensible rangers fan can say those words without dying a little inside.

All the while blaming every fúcker they can find, from Lawwell to the BBC, from Whyte to Murray, for the death of their club when they gave the shysters carte blanche to do as they pleased as long as rangers could get one over on Thame. An obsession which killed their beloved club. And, as a pleasing side-effect, doesn't appear to be doing their former partners a lot of good either.

Maybe if the pair of them had paid more than lip-service to their anti-bigotry campaigns over the years, all this might not have happened. Small pond, two big fish. They never did get to swim to the Big League where they "belonged", did they? Well, fúck em. Years of being told how Scottish football was holding these two "giants" back just increases the schadenfreude as the tune changes to "Scotland needs us". No, we don't. We've shown already that only one club has missed rangers, and Scotland wouldn't miss them either.

[bairney]

Had a chat with a bear at work he seemed to think everything is ok. They had £22 million from shares and only used £14 million of that so still have £8 million left. As I asked why then the need to borrow £1.5 million to survive then if you've got that money. Angry angry bear was raging

Should have told him 'you'll never walk a loan' I'll get ma coat

[Monkey Tennis]

We all know we're skint

Nae Bear thinks getting £1.5M in cash in exchange for 'future shares' is a good idea and 15% return in 6 months is getting towards usury territory

Nae Bear welcomes this situation

Agreed, although Bendarroch pretended that he did.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Agreed, although Bendarroch pretended that he did.

I think Kincy is correct, but he fails to take into account the number of berrz who simply don't understand the situation.

[The DA]

Years of being told how Scottish football was holding these two "giants" back just increases the schadenfreude as the tune changes to "Scotland needs us". No, we don't. We've shown already that only one club has missed rangers, and Scotland wouldn't miss them either.

I long for the day when they're both gone. Not only would it open up a level playing field for the rest of us (I can't believe any team will get the kind of grandfather-to-father-to-son succession planning again) but it would force those tossers in the media to learn to write about football rather than just spewing pish about war-chests and the endless bigot-fest.

[Monkey Tennis]

I'd go the other way, in all honesty. History is full of individuals, corporations, companies, even clubs( ) who have tried to gain unfair advantage over their competitors. The true shame, for me, is in the way that those involved in rangers' demise have conducted themselves throughout the substitution of a facsimile club in their place. From:

The dog-whistling soundbites of representatives. all the way from "we demand to know who these people are" through "rangers-itis" to the current moaning about officials,

The manipulation of their fanbase by urging to invest in "rangers" when the IPO was actually in the Holding Company - and look how that's turning out...

The threatening of those honest enough to state the truth and not buy into the whole club/company shite,

The supine compliance of the governing bodies over rangers' desire for continuance - nothing at all to do with the SFA Chief being up to his eyes in the EBT affair,

The pathetic behaviour of the tabloids in Scotland, who would rather buy into a lie than lose readers,

To the worst of the lot - the Horde, who are quite happy to joke about the businesses (and the Queen) robbed by the club, and deep-down aware that rangers admitted liabilty in EBT cases where evidence hadn't been shredded in time was available - yet continue to validate their sad little existences with cries of WATP and 54 titles. Because, as of the death of rangers, it was obvious to anyone that it was "the company, not the club". I refuse to believe any sensible rangers fan can say those words without dying a little inside.

All the while blaming every fúcker they can find, from Lawwell to the BBC, from Whyte to Murray, for the death of their club when they gave the shysters carte blanche to do as they pleased as long as rangers could get one over on Thame. An obsession which killed their beloved club. And, as a pleasing side-effect, doesn't appear to be doing their former partners a lot of good either.

Maybe if the pair of them had paid more than lip-service to their anti-bigotry campaigns over the years, all this might not have happened. Small pond, two big fish. They never did get to swim to the Big League where they "belonged", did they? Well, fúck em. Years of being told how Scottish football was holding these two "giants" back just increases the schadenfreude as the tune changes to "Scotland needs us". No, we don't. We've shown already that only one club has missed rangers, and Scotland wouldn't miss them either.

I've managed to agree with both AberdeenBud's post here as well as yours above. I'm like that FastShow character who just agreed with whoever was talking.

What the former club did was so cynical and immoral that it's hard to argue with AberdeenBud's assessment.

The above is however spot on too, culminating in a couple of towering closing paragraphs.

Well played Sir.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Monkey Tennis

[AyrshireTon]

I pop into this thread once in a while, but it's been slow news of late.

Then this morning the radio informs me that they've had to borrow £1.5 million to get through the next few months - and that's the ones WITH home gates in them!

Do these idiots never learn? I'm not very up on all of this but aren't they in the same kinda spot that the old dead club was before it went tits under?

How the feck can anyone at that place report this to the media and make it sound as though it's all ok and all taken care of.

No sheepish "we're skint" or "yep, we've fucked up again" type statements from Ibrox,

They've borrowed money pretty much from within since no sensible company will part with any cash from them given the previous club's record at repayments.

But it's all ok and nothing to see here, of course.

Utter lunacy.

[phasma ex machina]

Here is the list as of 1st January 2014, thanks to Loons Youth Team on the Sack Race thread.

Since then Ross Jack has gone, so he is now 7th longest serving manager out of the 42.

08/05/08 - Dick Campbell (Forfar Athletic)

21/01/09 - Ross Jack (Elgin City)

25/03/10 - Neil Lennon (Celtic)

27/05/10 - Paul Sheerin (Arbroath)

07/06/10 - Danny Lennon (St Mirren)

30/12/10 - Stuart McCall (Motherwell)

07/02/11 - Jim Duffy (Clyde)

16/05/11 - Ally McCoist (Rangers)

18/05/11 - Paul Hartley (Alloa Athletic)

18/05/11 - Derek Adams (Ross County)

31/05/11 - John Coughlin (East Stirlingshire)

07/10/11 - Jim McInally (Peterhead)

26/10/11 - Ian Little (Berwick Rangers)

04/12/11 - Greig McDonald (Stirling Albion)

21/03/12 - Jim Jefferies (Dunfermline Athletic)

15/05/12 - Mark Roberts (Ayr United)

17/05/12 - Stuart Garden (Montrose)

03/07/12 - Grant Murray (Raith Rovers)

17/07/12 - Martyn Corrigan (Stenhousemuir)

09/10/12 - Ray McKinnon (Brechin City)

22/10/12 - Stephen Aitken (Stranraer)

22/11/12 - Ian Murray (Dumbarton)

13/01/13 - Jim Chapman (Annan Athletic)

30/01/13 - Jackie McNamara (Dundee United)

30/01/13 - Alan Archibald (Partick Thistle)

22/02/13 - John Brown (Dundee)

28/02/13 - Gary Locke (Heart of Midlothian)

03/04/13 - Gary Holt (Falkirk)

03/04/13 - Alex Neil (Hamilton Academical)

07/04/13 - Derek McInnes (Aberdeen)

05/05/13 - James Ward (Albion Rovers)

10/06/13 - Tommy Wright (St Johnstone)

25/06/13 - Allan Johnston (Kilmarnock)

27/06/13 - Jim McIntyre (Queen of the South)

12/09/13 - John McGlynn (Livingston)

24/10/13 - Gary Bollan (Airdrie United)

12/11/13 - Terry Butcher (Hibernian)

25/11/13 - Gary Naysmith (East Fife)

30/11/13 - Jimmy Nicholl (Cowdenbeath)

04/12/13 - John Hughes (Inverness Caledonian Thistle)

13/12/13 - Kenny Shiels (Morton)

Vacant - Queen's Park

Even if you take the TUPE date that is scary, and with Hartley gone too, that would move him up one.

They would've been so much better served by a bun like Campbell, but, he wouldn't have brought in the season tickets .

[stonedsailor]

Dear bears,

This whole situation is beyond joking now. You are being robbed blind now and those doing so are not even bothering to hide their brazen acts. Please, for the love of f**k, open your eyes and wake up.

Stoney.

[hellbhoy]

Did Stenny hit the reset button on their attempted 'record breaking' win streak ... yet again another setback.

One orc I know was fuming at the prospect of Celtic going through the season unbeaten because The Clone Rangers might not have as many points as Celtic come the season end and Celtic already have a larger points gap than they do at the moment.

They aren't even in the same league as Celtic but they can't stop competing or comparing their measly success in the seaside painters & decorators leagues to Celtic in the top league.

The seethe will be monumental if they acquire less points than Celtic and if Celtic have a larger points gap to their nearest challenger stealing their thunder that they were more successful in their division than any other club in their division in Scotland.

[mid-table]

Even if you take the TUPE date that is scary, and with Hartley gone too, that would move him up one.

If you used the TUPE date then he would move above Ian Little as well, who has since been replaced by Colin Cameron.

[phasma ex machina]

If you used the TUPE date then he would move above Ian Little as well, who has since been replaced by Colin Cameron.

And he should've been emptied eons ago, even before the TUPE....

TSFM had a boy at the 'do' today......yer Lord replaced indeed...

John Clarke TSFM

ohn clarke says:

February 24, 2014 at 7:32 pm

9 0 Rate This

Nothing of any great substance to report from today’s UTTT hearing.

I was there for 9.30 , but the kick-off wasn’t till 10.00. That gave time for a little bit of socialising: I didn’t meet the Grant Russell chap from STV, but only a chap from the ‘Sun’, and a director from Murray Group, and Mr Thornhill (QC for the respondents,i.e the MG),who came to make himself known to me and another TSFM person.

A big surprise to me was that it was not Lord Bishopp presiding, but Lord Docherty ( which, of course, kept the business within the Scottish house)

Apparently, the respondents had appealed against the time allocation set by Judge Bishopp, and it was reduced from 20 to 10 days, and Judge Bishopp stood down for some reason.

At kick-off, there were ,besides Judge Docherty and the clerical officer, there were 15 persons in the Tribunal room.

On the left, Roderick Thomson QC for HMRC,supported by 6 other lawyers(none of whom actually sat beside him,but behind).

On the right, Andrew Thornhill QC for the respondents, supported by 2 other lawyers (one of whom sat beside him, the other one behind). Behind them was the Finance Director of the Murray group, the chap from the ‘Sun’, and me and a lurker.

On my left were two young women one of whom was there, she told me, as part of her training, as newly qualified and in her first job in a solicitor’s office as a qualified solicitor.

The other took copious notes and was probably a lawyer as well. (Mind you, so did I take copious notes,and I’m no lawyer!) She did not turn up for the second half.

The 17th person must have been Russell of STV, but he was sitting beside the lawyers behind Thomson,QC, so I had clocked him as a lawyer.

Lord Docherty reminded counsel that the names of the HMRC officers who gave evidence at the FTTT should not be disclosed, nor should the names of 3 witnesses who had given evidence on the basis of anonymity. Mr Thomson said he would try to remember that if or when he had occasion to mention their testimony in the course of the hearing.

Mr Thomson invited His lordship

- to overturn the decision of the First Tier Tax Tribunal and uphold HMRC’s assessments. He added that he would later have something to say about ‘unreasonable comments’ made by the FTTT.

or, if His Lordship was not minded to make any additional findings of fact, then to remit the case to a fresh Tribunal.

He gave a very short summary of the background. To wit, that the FTTT had heard evidence for 17 days,

and that the evidence bundles shows that much of the documentation was provided by the MG, and that there had been extensive reference to that documentation.

Put very simply, the MG had argued a) that for earnings to be taxable, there had to be ABSOLUTE legal title to

them, and that under the EBT Trust scheme there was no such absolute title. Payments made under them were something other than bonuses or emoluments and that the recipients of loans had had been no ‘unreserved disposal’ of the money that was on offer as loans.

and b) that the Trust scheme had not been shown to be a sham.

Mr Thomson said that HMRC’s view was that the evidence showed that there had been an underlying tacit agreement between the parties involved that loans would not ever be recalled, that interest due would be rolled up, until death, when the interest and repayment would be able to be offset against inheritance tax.

He said that the idea that the idea that payments under the Trust arrangements were something ‘other’ than taxable earnings was merely an assertion by the MG that did not reflect reality.

The rest of the day was spent by Mr Thomson ripping the FTTT’s whole approach to their hearing apart, and using quite harsh words their failure of duty to examine the evidence, make complete findings of fact, and apply the principles of the Ramsay case and a couple of other relevant cases properly, if at all.

he referred to the minority report of DR Poon as showing how many findings of fact were there to be made, which the majority had missed, and how their understanding and application of the Ramsay and other relevant cases had been erroneous and actually missed the very point of those cases.

He went on to say that the FTTT majority had failed to address the submissions made by HMRC, and that a pattern emerged of the FTTT simply accepting the MG’s submission, and of failing to make findings of fact to support arguments

There was not merely understandable error in law, but deeply flawed submissions by the Majority, wholesale faiure to exercise their judicial duty.

And so on all day till 4.00 pm, with frequent references to the legal authorities and the true interpretation of the case which is, that while there may be all the legal documentation to show that there was a proper, valid Trust, it was necessary to look at whether people in fact worked the Trust properly.

The Trust may be perfectly legal and not a sham, but the Trustees could ( and in this case, did, act beyond their powers) by making loans to people who were not entitled to such under the trust, making loans without requiring evidence of security or requiring repayment or interest payments -and all involved knew this to be the case. And, of course, the Trustees who began to ask for security etc were dismissed and another more compliant lot were brought in.

—–

That all sounds as dry as dust, but I actually quite enjoyed the day, And I’ll be back tomorrow. I still have 18 pages of notes to decipher: I can write legibly, and I can write fast: but not both at the same time!

[doulikefish]

Fat Sally has had to put his rebuilding plans on hold now aswell according to news reports on twitter

Tick Tock

[hellbhoy]

ok I'll bite. We are, of course, the Rangers International Football Club Ltd. however, if you were one of us, you'd understand that we are Rangers then, Rangers now and Rangers forever. What's in a name, eh.

One thing is for fucking sure ?, you don't have a scooby about anything do ya ? Even your own clubs name.

"The Rangers International Football Club PLC" is the holding company for the club.

"The Rangers Football Club Ltd" is the club that is owned by the holding company.

On our way back ? to school again !, after all what's in a name.

[phasma ex machina]

Taken from CM, re the change in judge on the tax case

of his old secondary school

"St. Joseph's College was founded in 1875 as both a boarding school and the first Novitiate for the training of Marist Brothers in Great Britain. Brother Walfrid, the man who founded Celtic Football Club, also helped to found the school. The school became part of the state school system in 1981, but still accepts Catholic students as priority. The school was a boys' school to begin with, and the first female pupils were admitted as day pupils in the early 1970s."

Fair hearing then :D

[bennett]

Grant Russell ‏@STVGrant · 2m

It was revealed today at the Upper Tier Tax Tribunal that Alex McLeish had a property bought for him through an EBT:http://bit.ly/1ebB1SE

Cheats then, Cheats now . . .

That property was the best left winger we've ever had...

[bennett]

Well this should be interesting

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/265261-hmrc-argue-error-of-law-made-as-rangers-oldco-tax-appeal-begins/

I wonder what happens if HMRC wins, will the SFA have the bottle to strip titles?

Best get the fat low level paper gatherer on speed dial....