Charles Green's share issue

[dave.j]

well, thats me won over, well put Tedi, if only Youngsy had said all this before.

May your club take their rightful place at the top of Scottish football.

It was all a dream, a wet dream, but just a dream.

[hellbhoy]

There may well be 12 teams in that division but as a competition there is nothing there to challenge for the main object of having a league,any league,and that's having the capability to challenge for the trophy and indeed win it. Which as a competition makes non-competitive for the title.

We all know there will be the relegation battles,that happens in every league in football but in those leagues there is a relevant challenge for the title,that's the point. Without both Rangers and Celtic competing against each other there is not a competitiveness to win the championship. To be honest Scottish football either needs both clubs in the same division or both of them out of Scottish football in order for a competition worth bothering about.

NAH ! I don't agree with you basically because your an OF fan who has been too used to winning and been brainwashed into believing that only an OF title fight gives the league any credance.

Some of the European leagues this season like Spain,Germany & Greece have produced a one horse race early on in the campaign,would you consider their leagues as irrelavent ? most of the rest of the leagues have 2 or maybe even as much 3 competing for the title but few have more than 3 at this point in the season.So by your reckoning these top European leagues that are won year in and year out by the same teams would be rendered irrelevant seeing as there are only a few teams that can win and all the others are fighting for 3rd place scraps at best.

If one team this season in the SPL finishes second each season and has a couple of good runs in Europe before Rangers reach the SPL they may be in better shape financially than Rangers and more astute than Celtic when signing players and then be able to compete for the title rendering your statement useless that only an OF showdown gives the SPL credance.

[The DA]

Glad you agree,Enrico. The Rangers Football Club PLC, the clue is in the PLC as in Public Limited Company.

Under what circumstances can a club die, then? Cos nothing's immortal.

[hellbhoy]

As bennett has said it's likely that some of the players that left,perhaps most of them would still have been at the club. Naismith,McGregor,Davis and Aluko may well have stayed,perhaps others too. You're posting this under the scenario of the club losing the aforementioned players and operating with the current squad only. Neither of which you have any idea what players would have been at the club so therefore your question is hypothetical. And i'll say again,when you have only one team that is capable of winning a league title then that is not a competitive league campaign. So here's a question for you; where is the challenge to Celtic to win this seasons' SPL Championship. Which team is giving a relevant challenge to winning the title.

There is no way Rangers would have kept those players you mention on them blockbuster wages except Aluko.

You haven't factored in that Rangers were running on huge loses without European football last year because the players were massively over paid and this is why Whyte did not pay the NI & PAYE.

Now add in that the ST's this year have been reduced as well and you have even less money to pay last years squad to which ! was still essentialy the EBT driven squad from the year before and why Whyte had to renew these players contracts to give them the same amount of money they would have been paid if they still had been paid by EBT.Because Whyte had to renew the EBT paid players he also had increased NI & PAYE to give the players what they were paid through EBT and this added to the wage bill immensely.Fact is that the wage budget under Whyte had gone up by nearly a third because NI & PAYE had to be paid on new contracts to the EBT players so those players took home the same amount if they still had been paid by EBT's.

So answering your question Rangers would still have fielded a pretty poor piss team this year if they had still been in the SPL Youngsy,because they would have to had let go of the most expensively paid players before TUPING over.As there was no guarantee another club could buy them before their wages would have had a dramatic affect on this years wage budget causing Rangers to haemorrhage money at an alarming pace even with incresed income from being an SPL side.

[hellbhoy]

In the year prior to Whyte taking over did Rangers actually mange to reduce there debt by something like £7M -£9M while not operating EBT`s yet still winning 2 trophies?

I beleive in this same year Celtic`s wage budget was also considerably higher.

Do you consider this competing?

Dave!

I said in the period before Whyte

Rangers

Debt was well over £22M and 2 reductions were announced, one of them

was £3.7M, when Whyte took over the debt was £18M, Rangers still won the

SPL the wage bill was lower than Celtic and they were not operating

EBT`s

This is the period that is relevant as it shows what happens when the club is properly ran, it can compete and fairly.

Whyte

was a crook, who just stopped paying paye to line his own pockets, I am

not defending this but it was what it was and certainly not a

responsible owner living within their means.

The EBT's only stopped when Whyte took over and Whyte actually said this and the EBT paid players had their contracts renewed when Wyhte took over ? so the wage bill under Whyte actually increased Tedi.

So your theory of a Rangers team being paid less than Celtic that year and still won two trophies is blown out the window.Wyhte stopped the EBT's when he bought the club in 2011 because MIH stopped paying these highest paid EBT players because Murray did not own the club any more so Whyte had to renegotiate their contracts or these players were walking away because they got half the money they used to get through the EBT method and could claim breach of contract to the club as written in the side letters.

You don't half post some pish sometimes straight off the top of your single brain cell.

[bennett]

There is no way Rangers would have kept those players you mention on them blockbuster wages except Aluko.

You haven't factored in that Rangers were running on huge loses without European football last year because the players were massively over paid and this is why Whyte did not pay the NI & PAYE.

Now add in that the ST's this year have been reduced as well and you have even less money to pay last years squad to which ! was still essentialy the EBT driven squad from the year before and why Whyte had to renew these players contracts to give them the same amount of money they would have been paid if they still had been paid by EBT.Because Whyte had to renew the EBT paid players he also had increased NI & PAYE to give the players what they were paid through EBT and this added to the wage bill immensely.Fact is that the wage budget under Whyte had gone up by nearly a third because NI & PAYE had to be paid on new contracts to the EBT players so those players took home the same amount if they still had been paid by EBT's.

So answering your question Rangers would still have fielded a pretty poor piss team this year if they had still been in the SPL Youngsy,because they would have to had let go of the most expensively paid players before TUPING over.As there was no guarantee another club could buy them before their wages would have had a dramatic affect on this years wage budget causing Rangers to haemorrhage money at an alarming pace even with incresed income from being an SPL side.

The question was if Rangers were still in the SPL what sort of squad would we have. Now if we were still in the SPL then season tickets wouldn't have been reduced.

Common sense mate, it's not exactly rocket science.

[bennett]

The EBT's only stopped when Whyte took over and Whyte actually said this and the EBT paid players had their contracts renewed when Wyhte took over ? so the wage bill under Whyte actually increased Tedi.

So your theory of a Rangers team being paid less than Celtic that year and still won two trophies is blown out the window.Wyhte stopped the EBT's when he bought the club in 2011 because MIH stopped paying these highest paid EBT players because Murray did not own the club any more so Whyte had to renegotiate their contracts or these players were walking away because they got half the money they used to get through the EBT method and could claim breach of contract to the club as written in the side letters.

You don't half post some pish sometimes straight off the top of your single brain cell.

See the bit i've highlighted, that shows how laughable your post is.

F**king "whyte said so" I suggest that in future you engage that brain cell of yours before posting.

[Henrik's tongue]

Under what circumstances can a club die, then? Cos nothing's immortal.

If you're Rangers you just make the rules up to suit, mate.

[hellbhoy]

See the bit i've highlighted, that shows how laughable your post is.

F**king "whyte said so" I suggest that in future you engage that brain cell of yours before posting.

Wrong

The EBT scheme as operated by Rangers was declared illegal in 2010, HMRC closed the loop, Murray is on record saying that those payments stopped at this point.

The scheme was not in operation when Whyte took over.

Here we have the two numbnut P&B resident experts that are all high and mighty when it comes to anything Rangers Benny makes a point of Whyte says so like it means feck all and Tedi posting that Murray says he stopped it like it's the gospel.Then don't engage their brains properly in their haste to shoot me down.

Firstly Tedi the subtrust had all the seasons payments prepaid into it and the player then asked for a pre-determined loan ? at a later date,the money is already in the trust by the end off December 2010 and could be deemed as stopping the scheme at this point if no more money is paid into the trust and this is what Murray is on record saying.

But there is still EBT subtrusts with amounts of cash waiting to be dispensed to players asking for a pre-determined loan ? .At this point the EBT scheme offshore is still in operation for dispensing loans till all the EBT paid players emty the kitty before the end of the season to which then Whyte took charge ! this is where I pointed out the renewal of contracts by Whyte to retain these EBT paid players.Have you figured it out ?

So during Jan 2011 till Whyte took over EBT loans were still being dispensed to Rangers players but at the same time the scheme was closed as no more money was being deposited into it because it was deemed illegal,but money in the subtrusts could still be given to the players from the offshore method till the end of season 2010-2011because the money was already deposited in it and there was nowt the UK government could have done about that as the money was already offshore ready and waiting to be paid out.

EBT's only properly ended when Wyhte took over ya pair o nuggets.

Ragers Media has a thread on it but not as detailed as mine as to how the players still got EBT pre-determined loans till Whyte eventually took over.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

There you are,Dave. That period brings in season 1992/93 onwards. That was in the middle of the 9 in a row years,a period that had nothing to do with EBTs. This might be a generational thing but when i discuss the history of Scottish football i try and bring in the eras' that i watched the game going forward.

In the respect of discussing both clubs domination then i have to say that the domination didn't start 20 years ago,it is enshrined in the history of Scottish football and in the last 50 years only four clubs,outwith the Glasgow clubs, have won the title,only one of which retained it.

Which in my opinion makes the SPL, or whatever the top league is known as at any particular time, uncompetitive in a relevant title challenge when either Glasgow club is not competing against the other 99% of the time. To have a relevant and credible league,Scottish football needs both clubs competing with each other,fans outwith the two clubs might not agree,or wish to agree but the evidence going on the history of the game gives a truer reflection of the game.

Again, Youngsy, you'll find a large number of Scots fans would be perfectly happy with neither of the Sisters in the league.

For at least three quarters of my supporting life, I've known in August that a team from Glasgow will win the league. This year is only different for two reasons:

1. The smaller teams in the SPL can experiment more with their systems and youth players, as the relegation battle looks like it is a walkover due to Dundee being denied proper preparation time for their appearance in the top league. With the reduction in pressure, the football has been better. Teams are playing to win rather than to avoid defeat. The point spread from 2-11 places tends to blow the "uncompetitive" claim out of the water.

2. The whole country has an entertaining side-show to keep us amused. One which looks like it will last for quite some time to come.

Both these are directly the result of rangers' death - so every cloud, and all that.

And rangers' own silver lining? Maybe they'll win the bottom tier again next year, to prove it wasn't a fluke.

[hellbhoy]

Ragers Media has a thread saying Rangers are the same club, they also claim all Celtic fans are wankers, you will be endorsing these too

Red dotted for only posting deflected pish and didn't try to debunk what I typed and pish poor comeback as well Tedi.

Now go back to my previous post and try to debunk it ! if you can't then stop posting pish poor smart arsed attempts to rubbish my posts like it's making you look clever.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Red dotted for only posting deflected pish and didn't try to debunk what I typed and pish poor comeback as well Tedi.

Now go back to my previous post and try to debunk it ! if you can't then stop posting pish poor smart arsed attempts to rubbish my posts like it's making you look clever.

An Albert Einstein costume couldn't make Tedi look clever - he took an hour or so to find the 'fishul "nae worries at the Big Hoose" message from Jabba the Warehouse* which everybody and his dug had already pished themselves at on the big thread. Then he posted a link, saying "see! Told you it was a tic wet dream!"*

*(1) Well, he's bigger than any Hut I've ever seen...

*(2) I paraphrase, obviously.

Happy days are here again...

p.s. Anybody actually SEEN one of these famous Share Certificates? They should have been sent out last month, according to the timetable.

[Double Jack D]

It may piss off Green as he will be looking to justify ST sales playing the same teams as this season and in effect renders this season redundant as regards progressing through the divisions but the minimum timescale for getting back to the top division remains the same.

Green is Rangers at this moment. You can't seperate his actions or words from the club

Is Green not the company though?

[youngsy]

Again, Youngsy, you'll find a large number of Scots fans would be perfectly happy with neither of the Sisters in the league.

For at least three quarters of my supporting life, I've known in August that a team from Glasgow will win the league. This year is only different for two reasons:

1. The smaller teams in the SPL can experiment more with their systems and youth players, as the relegation battle looks like it is a walkover due to Dundee being denied proper preparation time for their appearance in the top league. With the reduction in pressure, the football has been better. Teams are playing to win rather than to avoid defeat. The point spread from 2-11 places tends to blow the "uncompetitive" claim out of the water.

2. The whole country has an entertaining side-show to keep us amused. One which looks like it will last for quite some time to come.

Both these are directly the result of rangers' death - so every cloud, and all that.

And rangers' own silver lining? Maybe they'll win the bottom tier again next year, to prove it wasn't a fluke.

Irrespective of what the majority of fans may want the harsh reality is that both clubs are in all likelihood going to remain in Scottish football. I may be wrong here but i was under the impression that sporting achievement meant competing to win trophies,medals that sort of thing. So as i've said many times when you haven't got a realistic and relevant challenge in sport,be it football or any other sport,then that competition is very much undervalued. Before anyone starts it would be undervalued if there was a role reversal.

Again you get away from this whole point by referring to what has happened to Rangers,we all know what happened but this is about the scarcity of competitiveness in the premier football division in Scottish football and how it has been shown by having one of the two Glasgow clubs,Rangers, out of that division that to have any real credibility the top division needs both clubs competing against each other. Celtic would have been better off being given the SPL trophy in August and told to take the league season off,such is the farcical nature of that league.

[Henrik's tongue]

Rangers are shite. Pure shite.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Irrespective of what the majority of fans may want the harsh reality is that both clubs are in all likelihood going to remain in Scottish football. I may be wrong here but i was under the impression that sporting achievement meant competing to win trophies,medals that sort of thing. So as i've said many times when you haven't got a realistic and relevant challenge in sport,be it football or any other sport,then that competition is very much undervalued. Before anyone starts it would be undervalued if there was a role reversal.

Again you get away from this whole point by referring to what has happened to Rangers,we all know what happened but this is about the scarcity of competitiveness in the premier football division in Scottish football and how it has been shown by having one of the two Glasgow clubs,Rangers, out of that division that to have any real credibility the top division needs both clubs competing against each other. Celtic would have been better off being given the SPL trophy in August and told to take the league season off,such is the farcical nature of that league.

Well, for the vast majority of people, sporting achievement is measured the same way as business or life achievement - what an individual or a group can attain with their available resources. I would say that Motherwell's achievements, as well as Killie's, were superior to celtic's last season, for example.

Winning is NOT everything - I, and I'm sure many others, can remember 0-0 games that were outstandingly competitive. By the same token, rangers (if they survive) will win the Third Division by a country mile - is this competitive? Are you and the rest of rapeepul watching competitive football every week?

Now, tell us again how all the rangers fans want to be in D3. Never fails to raise a chuckle, that one.

[Monkey Tennis]

Irrespective of what the majority of fans may want the harsh reality is that both clubs are in all likelihood going to remain in Scottish football. I may be wrong here but i was under the impression that sporting achievement meant competing to win trophies,medals that sort of thing. So as i've said many times when you haven't got a realistic and relevant challenge in sport,be it football or any other sport,then that competition is very much undervalued. Before anyone starts it would be undervalued if there was a role reversal.

Again you get away from this whole point by referring to what has happened to Rangers,we all know what happened but this is about the scarcity of competitiveness in the premier football division in Scottish football and how it has been shown by having one of the two Glasgow clubs,Rangers, out of that division that to have any real credibility the top division needs both clubs competing against each other. Celtic would have been better off being given the SPL trophy in August and told to take the league season off,such is the farcical nature of that league.

You must have hated the first few of your nine-in-a-row then. Apart from when Aberdeen ran you close in '91, there wasn't much of a challenge.

Aadvocaat also had a 20+ point triumph. That must have been shit for you.

[hellbhoy]

Irrespective of what the majority of fans may want the harsh reality is that both clubs are in all likelihood going to remain in Scottish football. I may be wrong here but i was under the impression that sporting achievement meant competing to win trophies,medals that sort of thing. So as i've said many times when you haven't got a realistic and relevant challenge in sport,be it football or any other sport,then that competition is very much undervalued. Before anyone starts it would be undervalued if there was a role reversal.

Again you get away from this whole point by referring to what has happened to Rangers,we all know what happened but this is about the scarcity of competitiveness in the premier football division in Scottish football and how it has been shown by having one of the two Glasgow clubs,Rangers, out of that division that to have any real credibility the top division needs both clubs competing against each other. Celtic would have been better off being given the SPL trophy in August and told to take the league season off,such is the farcical nature of that league.

Hearts and Hibs couldn't give a flying fcuk about the title as they only want to finish above each other every season so they can goad their rivals to hell that they were the better team that season,they also have their own derby that reaches fever pitch before kick off during the game and after and they couldn't care fucking less about the Big Glasgow derby if it was on at the same time on the same day.

[dave.j]

i was under the impression that sporting achievement meant competing to win trophies.

No, sporting achievement is about what your club achieves in the sport it partakes in.

For example, for st mirren, reaching the top 6 post split, would be a fantastic sporting achievement when you consider their budget.

[hellbhoy]

No, sporting achievement is about what your club achieves in the sport it partakes in.

For example, for st mirren, reaching the top 6 post split, would be a fantastic sporting achievement when you consider their budget.

Youngsy won't get that because he has been so used to a winning team he won't consider a club achieving the highest ever placing in the SPL as a competitive achievement ! ROSS COUNTY ? will finish this season above expectations and will be more ecstatic than Rangers winning the SPL ever will be.