Sons' sorrow

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

Like I said it's a personal opinion, the early start, the incomplete squads etc just makes it feel a hell of a lot like pre season games. Therefore I couldn't really give a f**k.

I also acknowledge that my opinion is probably a minority opinion. I'd like to take it seriously but I just don't really care all that much.

I still care about lacklustre performances mind you those annoy me, in any competition!

Fair enough.

I just didn't understand the bit about changes to the tournament's structure making it "more difficult for the likes of ourselves".

I still don't.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Fair enough.

I just didn't understand the bit about changes to the tournament's structure making it "more difficult for the likes of ourselves".

I still don't.

Group stage. Over 4 games you'd fully expect the pot 1 team to progress automatically, that's highly unlikely to ever be us. We should be aiming to take one of the best runner up spots but that's no mean feat with the likes of Peterhead in your group. There will obviously be exceptions to that but being part-time will make it a struggle. Far better chance in a one off game IMO.

Previously if you got a kind enough draw you could get to the last 16 a fair bit easier.

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

 

Group stage. Over 4 games you'd fully expect the pot 1 team to progress automatically, that's highly unlikely to ever be us. We should be aiming to take one of the best runner up spots but that's no mean feat with the likes of Peterhead in your group. There will obviously be exceptions to that but being part-time will make it a struggle. Far better chance in a one off game IMO.

Previously if you got a kind enough draw you could get to the last 16 a fair bit easier.

 

 

I'd have thought that more games as opposed to one off ties, would favour the stronger sides in terms of finishing in the top two with a decent points total. 

As a Championship club, that description would fit Dumbarton. 

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Obviously it's not a club decision, but I think every manager we have had in recent years has valued league safety/promotion over a cup run. Put it that way!

Mainly because they don't lose their job if we get put out the League Cup.

47 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

basically a well-drilled, fit and hard-working side, but no more than that.

A description that fitted our team perfectly last year and if we have any faith in Aitken at all then we should be backing him to make us that again, hopefully with some extra flair. I'm not trying to defend how bad the performance was last night, just stating that it might not actually be a true reflection of how the season is about to go.

[George Parr]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

What's this about Dumbarton historically treating cups cheaply?

Leaving aside what you did to us in the Scottish Cup last season, is it really the case that cups haven't been taken very seriously?  As a fan, such an approach would really piss me off.  

Our record in knockout competition is pretty dire generally but whether we treat the cups cheaply or not is less conclusive.

Certainly we've the poorest record of any club who has played in the Challenge Cup - so it does appear that we treat as little more than an inconvenience.

I do think we approach the Scottish Cup with a view to progress but over the years we've received some woeful beatings from sides we should have expected to compete with. Whilst we rarely (if ever) score any major upsets.

The league cup is more of a mixed bag. Usually the matches come within the first few matches of the season and we'll still be cycling through players and systems. I think we would always want to progress though.

 

 

[Sweet Pete]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

Mainly because they don't lose their job if we get put out the League Cup.

A description that fitted our team perfectly last year and if we have any faith in Aitken at all then we should be backing him to make us that again, hopefully with some extra flair. I'm not trying to defend how bad the performance was last night, just stating that it might not actually be a true reflection of how the season is about to go.

When you consoider that a winning team begets a winning team, therefore winning the traditional early season League Cup tie should be important as it can get players confident and into form. There's not a finite amount of win somewhere that we need to preserve lest we use it all up in cup games and have none left for the league.

[Jan Vojáček]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Mainly because they don't lose their job if we get put out the League Cup.

A description that fitted our team perfectly last year and if we have any faith in Aitken at all then we should be backing him to make us that again, hopefully with some extra flair. I'm not trying to defend how bad the performance was last night, just stating that it might not actually be a true reflection of how the season is about to go.

True, but it could help buy them some time and support if we did go on a cup run - not to mention helping to boost the finances.

There was something somebody said a while back, it might have been you, BBPF or Pete, I can't remember, about always feeling like Ian Murray had a plan and knew what he was doing - even when it was horrendous to watch. With Stevie I just don't get that feeling, he looked to be feeling pressure towards the end of last season and last night cut a hugely frustrated figure on the touchline.

I want him to succeed, I was delighted when we got him in and players appear to love him, not to mention the lack of any half decent looking replacements. I'm just not sure he will, for whatever reason.

Anyhoo, at least it's given us something to chat about.

[The Moonster]

Just now, Sweet Pete said:

When you consoider that a winning team begets a winning team, therefore winning the traditional early season League Cup tie should be important as it can get players confident and into form. There's not a finite amount of win somewhere that we need to preserve lest we use it all up in cup games and have none left for the league.

Absolutely agree that we should look to win every match we play in and I agree that confidence and momentum is important (so does SA if his interviews are to be taken seriously) and I understand that we don't have a set amount of wins to use up, but if the club had "get to the final of the League Cup" (or similar) as one of his priorities then I'm sure we'd have seen a different team and performance last night.  As it is, "keep DFC in the Championship" is pretty much the only prerogative this year, with a small squad. And if we stay up, nobody will give two fucks whether we went out in round 1 of the League Cup or got to the last 16.

[Sweet Pete]

19 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Absolutely agree that we should look to win every match we play in and I agree that confidence and momentum is important (so does SA if his interviews are to be taken seriously) and I understand that we don't have a set amount of wins to use up, but if the club had "get to the final of the League Cup" (or similar) as one of his priorities then I'm sure we'd have seen a different team and performance last night.  As it is, "keep DFC in the Championship" is pretty much the only prerogative this year, with a small squad. And if we stay up, nobody will give two fucks whether we went out in round 1 of the League Cup or got to the last 16.

I disagree. If Sons finished 9th and stay up by winning the playoff, but go out of every cup competition early it'll have been a successful season only in so far as success being measured against the singular goal of staying up. There'd be so few wins witnessed it would be enough to make one question why they're so desperate to see the club stay up at all as at least a league down there'd be more wins available.

However, if the club finishes 9th and wins the playoffs to stay up but also gets to the last 16 of the League Cup, the same in the Scottish Cup and go a few rounds in the Challenge Cup, then you would be able to turn around and say hand on heart that it had been a successful season.

Staying up by a bawhair every season and doing nothing else of footballing note isn't success, it's subsistence. In decades to come it won't be staying up by a narrow margin that fans reflect on, it'll be finishing 5th, playing Aberdeen in the Scottish Cup latter stages, promotions, title wins etc. Success can't simply be 8th place every year, that's purgatory, not success.

[Monkey Tennis]

18 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Absolutely agree that we should look to win every match we play in and I agree that confidence and momentum is important (so does SA if his interviews are to be taken seriously) and I understand that we don't have a set amount of wins to use up, but if the club had "get to the final of the League Cup" (or similar) as one of his priorities then I'm sure we'd have seen a different team and performance last night.  As it is, "keep DFC in the Championship" is pretty much the only prerogative this year, with a small squad. And if we stay up, nobody will give two fucks whether we went out in round 1 of the League Cup or got to the last 16.

The logic of that is undeniable, it's a pretty grim outlook for fans though, is it not?

Obviously, success for Dumbarton this season would be staying in the division for another one.  Our own situation is slightly, but not hugely different I suppose.

What that does, to my mind anyway, is make Cup performance yet more important.  When promotion pushes are not likely, then advancing in cups can go a long way to lightening a league campaign likely to yield fewer wins than defeats. 

 

I think the observation about the manager being measured by league standing is sound enough.  I'm not sure that the interests of fans necessarily coincide with the manager's though.

 

[Sweet Pete]

Here's a question: If Sons continued to stay up by finishing 8th or 9th every season for the next ten years, would you be happy as a fan that your club was successful? Bearing in mind that you'd likely witness about 10 Dumbarton wins in that decade.

Frankly I'd rather be relegated as when "success" is viewed as being utterly horse for 90% of a league season every season then it's a success I want no part of. Eventually the goals and aims need to readjust to more than simply treading water, surely?

[Jan Vojáček]

9 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

Here's a question: If Sons continued to stay up by finishing 8th or 9th every season for the next ten years, would you be happy as a fan that your club was successful? Bearing in mind that you'd likely witness about 10 Dumbarton wins in that decade.

Frankly I'd rather be relegated as when "success" is viewed as being utterly horse for 90% of a league season every season then it's a success I want no part of. Eventually the goals and aims need to readjust to more than simply treading water, surely?

I've had this conversation a few times with my family actually, particularly before Nade signed last season.

Me and my Dad both would take challenging at the top end of League 1 (maybe a few promotions, then a few playoff failures) over a prolonged period of surviving by the skin of our teeth in the Championship, whereas my brother would take the Championship one because "you always want to see the team at as high a level you can".

If, in 5 years time, we're still surviving here and the aim is 8th every season then I'll be disappointed we haven't consolidated ourselves as a Championship club and started to aim higher.

At the end of the day, for me anyway, I want to see us winning games. The memories I have (like has been said further up) are winning promotions, the 3rd division title, the playoffs, the Aberdeen game. That sort of thing, give me the joy of a promotion over the joy of staying up any day. If we got relegated and promoted a few times over the next few years I'd view that as successful. It would certainly be more memorable than scrabbling for points and celebrating a 1-0 win over Raith or QOTS that moved us from 10th to 9th. In my opinion anyway.

Also the away days in the lower leagues are far better. I far prefer grounds like Station Park and the Glebe to EEP, TFS and the like. It's probably because that's what I was used to growing up, but I can't honestly say I look forward to any away games in this league.

I guess everyone will be quite split about this, be interesting to find out if we're a minority.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Sonsteam of 08

[Silverton End]

23 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

I disagree. If Sons finished 9th and stay up by winning the playoff, but go out of every cup competition early it'll have been a successful season only in so far as success being measured against the singular goal of staying up. There'd be so few wins witnessed it would be enough to make one question why they're so desperate to see the club stay up at all as at least a league down there'd be more wins available.

However, if the club finishes 9th and wins the playoffs to stay up but also gets to the last 16 of the League Cup, the same in the Scottish Cup and go a few rounds in the Challenge Cup, then you would be able to turn around and say hand on heart that it had been a successful season.

Staying up by a bawhair every season and doing nothing else of footballing note isn't success, it's subsistence. In decades to come it won't be staying up by a narrow margin that fans reflect on, it'll be finishing 5th, playing Aberdeen in the Scottish Cup latter stages, promotions, title wins etc. Success can't simply be 8th place every year, that's purgatory, not success.

I think your onto something here, I'd like to see DFC play at the highest level possible.

On the flip-side, if it's only winning a handful of games & struggling against relegation every season, the prospect of challenging for a lower League title could appeal.

5 years in The Championship & our home support appears to be decreasing, 400-odd season tickets sold for the upcoming campaign, a year or two ago it was over 600. An away day means £50-£60, few beers, food, transport etc. It's hard to justify that cash with other outgoings, and hard to watch some of the football too, sadly.

If we get relegated & were challenging for the League 1 title, would these home fans return??

Food for thought indeed.

[George Parr]

The simple fact is that more fans turn up when the team is winning - irrespective of the league you're in and the quality of football. The run in the latter part of the 3rd Division Championship season was as enjoyable as any moment in the last 4 seasons.

But there's a 'be careful what you wish for' note of caution here. Last time we fell out the second tier there was some excitement that we could bounce back straight away and play some attractive football to boot. But we fell - and kept on falling.

[Silverton End]

Absolutely

[Jan Vojáček]

The thing is we will always be here, but for the walk up punter from Dumbarton (probably with OF sympathies) it's not appealing to watch a team struggling at the wrong end of the Championship.

Does everyone remember Raise the Rock day in 2009 - where we beat Forfar 4-0 meaning that we could win the league by beating Elgin the following week? That was one of the best atmospheres I remember at the rock, and there must have been almost 1000 people in the stadium - almost all in the home end!

Winning games, at whatever level, will drag more fans in. We have reached a point now where the general public expect us to be in the Championship - so it's lost that attraction - and where we are tasting defeat far more often than victory, and the more casual fans don't see the attraction of scrapping to a 1-0 victory over Raith - they want the 6-0 v Elgin!

Ach I don't know. If we stay up I'll be happy, if we go down it won't bother me, and I'll hope we can get back to winning ways.

I've missed going into games pretty much expecting to win them! Always a strategy that blows up in your face, but you can't beat the feeling of watching the team play well and being absolutely gagging for it to be the next week so you can see them again.

[Boghead ranter]

4 minutes ago, Consolidate said:

The simple fact is that more fans turn up when the team is winning - irrespective of the league you're in and the quality of football. The run in the latter part of the 3rd Division Championship season was as enjoyable as any moment in the last 4 seasons.

But there's a 'be careful what you wish for' note of caution here. Last time we fell out the second tier there was some excitement that we could bounce back straight away and play some attractive football to boot. But we fell - and kept on falling.

Back to back relegations and then what? - was it bottom or 2nd bottom of the bottom tier we finished?

ETA I was there through it all, it's just that my memory has blanked out some of the specifics for the sake of my sanity.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Boghead ranter

[George Parr]

2 minutes ago, Boghead ranter said:

Back to back relegations and then what? - was it bottom or 2nd bottom of the bottom tier we finished?

ETA I was there through it all, it's just that my memory has blanked out some of the specifics for the sake of my sanity.

It was bottom. Worst of the lot. 1998 I think. 

[Boghead ranter]

2 minutes ago, Consolidate said:

It was bottom. Worst of the lot. 1998 I think. 

Thanks - that's what I thought, I just didn't want to admit it.  Tough times.

[Jan Vojáček]

1 minute ago, Boghead ranter said:

Thanks - that's what I thought, I just didn't want to admit it.  Tough times.

Imagine what P&B would've been like in 1998 if it had been invented 

Obviously it would've been without my whit, intelligence and hashtag bantz, but Sons' Sorrow would have been going into overload! I'd love to have gone back and read the comments from the fans between Fallon being appointed and the end of the 98 season, it would be fascinating reading knowing what we do now.