Independence - how would you vote?

[H_B]

In your opinion, why has this been allowed to happen?

How many countries in the world run at a surplus?

It's a product of a political system that encourages short term thinking. Who cares what happens 20 years down the line? You need to win an election in 5 years time, and people want low taxation and lots of spending. Austerity isn't a vote winner.

Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Most of us have debts, often many times beyond our annual salaries (a house for example).

Do you really think that, post mythical referendum win, that the Scottish government will run Scotland at a surplus? You have to be kidding.

[pandarilla]

He also said he wasn't interested in discussing it. So why bother? He's had chances to list WHY he thinks we're too wee and too stupid, but he won't.

Do you want to win the argument or win the vote?

You are pretty good at arguing and grinding folk down but that usually doesn't convert those folk to your POV.

A policy of hearts and minds is the key.

Yes supporters have to box clever for the next 10 months if we're going to persuade enough undecided.

[DjembaDjemba]

I was a little thrown by this. Someone else used similar numbers earlier in the thread too.

Scotland runs a structural and cyclical deficit. The whole of the UK does. This means it spends more than it generates in tax. It arguably generates proportionately more tax relative to what it spends than the UK as a whole, but that isn't the same argument. The question then becomes one of whether being part of a bigger state and (potentially) having better access to an overdraft proportionately higher than the average income is better or worse than potentially having a proportionately smaller overdraft, but a marginally lower shortfall from month to month to deal with.

The pocket money analogy is generally a piss-poor one, though, because the aggregation and disaggregation of revenue and spending is artificial and assumes that certain other questions have already been answered in a certain way. I have still to see a reason, other than a completely pragmatic one, about why it's not okay to make devolved legislatures live largely off pocket money but it's somehow fine and dandy to let local councils live off pocket money.

No arguably about it, and it's THE crucial point; Scotland's fiscal deficit is just under £8 billion, the UK's is over £120 billion.

Scale Scotland's deficit up comparative to population of the UK it would be less than 90 or 75% of the UK's.

So we are a more prosperous and less indebted nation straight away before the purse strings even get cut.

[Reynard]

You don't accept the GERS figures?

Looks like it.

[Mr Rational]

It's a product of a political system that encourages short term thinking

So the political system is broken in your opinion?

How would you fix this? Remember, please use the Westminster model of Labour and Tory governments, be realistic about the actual chance of what you think needs to happen, actually happening etc.

Flooris still yours.

[Mr Rational]

Looks like it.

This isn't about me, this is about how HB would like to fix the country. Easy to throw pelters, I would like to hear his opinion on why in his opinion, we wouldn't be able to make a go of it.

Edit - tea is ready then heading out, will look at this later on.

[LinkinFighter]

A few pages back someone posted an index showing that Ireland and Iceland were doing better than the UK. I can't recall the name of the index but how is this possible if the UK is so mighty? It tells me Scotland would be ahead of the UK and probably Ireland/Iceland.

[Dunning1874]

This might be my only post on the subject as I can't be arsed bickering about it ...

I'm not a gambling man, if it aint broke don't fix it - can it all go to rat shit if we stay in the Union ? ... probably not !

Can it all go horrendously wrong if we go independent ... hell yes, and almost certainly yes !!

This is the country that's been building a 9 mile stretch of tram line since 2007 FFS !!

It is absolutely going to rat shit already in the Union, and getting worse.

[H_B]

This isn't about me, this is about how HB would like to fix the country. Easy to throw pelters, I would like to hear his opinion on why in his opinion, we wouldn't be able to make a go of it.

Edit - tea is ready then heading out, will look at this later on.

Where exactly did I say we "wouldn't be able to make a go of it?" Ever.

You seem to be asking a lot of questions and answering none. Here's two :-

1) Why do you dispute the GERS figures?

2) Do you believe a post-Indy Scottish government would spend less than we take in ?

[Ned Nederlander]

I stand by it. People who are opposed to political independence for their own country are not normal.

Quite - although in my case I've already stated I'd love an independent Scotland !?

[Gordon EF]

Sorry, you can't slither away from your own dreadful post quite that easily.

You have labelled "currently over half of Scotland's electorate" as being those happy to receive £1200 from a £1700 salary. When this is complete and utter nonsense.

Ignoring that the analogy is hideous, what in fact they are receiving is £1800 for a £1700 salary.

What you could be arguing is that instead of a £1700 salary they could be earning £2200. But they could also be earning £1500. And you could also point out that there is a price to pay for receiving more in spending than you are earning. The extra £100 isn't free.

It more like person A giving £1700 over to person B, then person B taking out a £100 loan every month (which person A is responsible for paying back), giving person A £1200 back to spend how they like, and spending £550 on their behalf.

[Gordon EF]

Quite - although in my case I've already stated I'd love an independent Scotland !?

Can I ask why you think Scotland is inherently less able to govern itself than the UK is, or why Scotland is inherently less able than all the other countries (of all sizes) whi manage it without it becoming a "disaster".

[Ned Nederlander]

He also said he wasn't interested in discussing it.

I didn't say I didn't want to discuss it I said I didn't want to 'bicker' about it.

I'm happy to discuss my view and to a certain extent I already have but I know P&B well enough to know that one comment, one typo, one wee lapse in thinking will have what was said ground down and regurgitated over and over ad nauseum sometimes for f'ckin years and I can't be arsed with it on this subject. (more fear lolz)

I've dipped my toe in the thread and will probably check back but I'm not up for a shit flinging contest.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

A few pages back someone posted an index showing that Ireland and Iceland were doing better than the UK. I can't recall the name of the index but how is this possible if the UK is so mighty? It tells me Scotland would be ahead of the UK and probably Ireland/Iceland.

Legatum Prosperity Index.

Too small? Not really independent if you're in the EU? Race to the bottom bordering rival nations? Too risky being on your own?

Problems Scotland would have that don't apply to all the small, European nations that utterly dick on the failed ex-superpower.

[~~~]

“@SkyNewsBreak: Sky sources: Government to announce sale of £900m student loan book tomorrow”

[caleyjaggi]

Can everyone please calm down a wee bit? Ned has his reasons for voting 'no' at the moment, he's a soft 'no' however, let's engage him rather than shout him down.

Nobody is a shitebag, nobody is a quisling (well maybe Foulkes and Davidson, I will let folk have that one), yes I know it's a daft fitba' website, but name calling is getting us nowhere.

It's frustrating for many Yes voters and is hard to comprehend the notion that would see anyone vote against their own countries independence.

This is compounded by the fact that the No coalition, who feed these folks insecurities and misconceptions with the help of the entire media, is made up of Westminster politicians and Westminster led Scottish politicians with a long history of lies, corruption, illegal wars, scandals, incompetence and a track record of not acting in the best interest of the Scottish people.

On top of that, these politicians stand to all lose out personally with the loss of their Westminster and House of Lords gravy train. So if your going to take your lead from that lot I'd say your going to encounter some stick, but it's two way street it seems on here, with some of the hard no's and concern trolls quick to attack the man not the ball.

[Ned Nederlander]

Can I ask why you think Scotland is inherently less able to govern itself than the UK is, or why Scotland is inherently less able than all the other countries (of all sizes) whi manage it without it becoming a "disaster".

I guess this is already an instance of something I've said being stripped to the bone - if I can be allowed to pull that one back a bit I'll reaffirm that my main fear is that something as big as this has the potential to go very very wrong - no one knows how an independent Scotland would pan out , any decisions made would be done with the country's best interests at heart but do I think we'd get everything right ... no I don't !

[H_B]

It's frustrating for many Yes voters and is hard to comprehend the notion that would see anyone vote against their own countries independence.

This is compounded by the fact that the No coalition, who feed these folks insecurities and misconceptions with the help of the entire media, is made up of Westminster politicians and Westminster led Scottish politicians with a long history of lies, corruption, illegal wars, scandals, incompetence and a track record of not acting in the best interest of the Scottish people.

On top of that, these politicians stand to all lose out personally with the loss of their Westminster and House of Lords gravy train. So if your going to take your lead from that lot I'd say your going to encounter some stick, but it's two way street it seems on here, with some of the hard no's and concern trolls quick to attack the man not the ball.

What has been consistent from the No voters is a willingness to let the democratic process determine the will of the people, and happily accept what that is. That cannot be said of the Yes camp.

If it's a Yes vote I won't be overly worried or concerned. That will be the Scottish people's decision and I'm happy to respect it and get on with things. No tantrums, no "it's just not fair" tear-stained rants. No blaming the media or dark forces or the stupidity of the electorate. No "Hell mend them - they'll be sorry" petted lips.

The people will decide what they want. That should be respected whatever the choice is and we move on.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

“@SkyNewsBreak: Sky sources: Government to announce sale of £900m student loan book tomorrow”

Things are going pretty well for the UK byraway.

[caleyjaggi]

What has been consistent from the No voters is a willingness to let the democratic process determine the will of the people, and happily accept what that is. That cannot be said of the Yes camp.

If it's a Yes vote I won't be overly worried or concerned. That will be the Scottish people's decision and I'm happy to respect it and get on with things. No tantrums, no "it's just not fair" tear-stained rants. No blaming the media or dark forces or the stupidity of the electorate. No "Hell mend them - they'll be sorry" petted lips.

The people will decide what they want. That should be respected whatever the choice is and we move on.

That cannot be said for some of the Yes camp but only in the same way it can't be said for some of the No camp, sevconian's a prime example.

In fact, I've seen much more high profile No voters throw the toys out the pram and threaten to leave than the other way around. Actually I can't think of any Yes supporting business people etc threatening to up sticks although maybe I missed some?