Independence - how would you vote?

[H_B]

That cannot be said for some of the Yes camp but only in the same way it can't be said for some of the No camp, sevconian's a prime example.

In fact, I've seen much more high profile No voters throw the toys out the pram and threaten to leave than the other way around. Actually I can't think of any Yes supporting business people etc threatening to up sticks although maybe I missed some?

I meant on here, rather than "out there".

[xbl]

I guess this is already an instance of something I've said being stripped to the bone - if I can be allowed to pull that one back a bit I'll reaffirm that my main fear is that something as big as this has the potential to go very very wrong - no one knows how an independent Scotland would pan out , any decisions made would be done with the country's best interests at heart but do I think we'd get everything right ... no I don't !

Yes, but in what way does it have the potential to go very very wrong? Do you not have any specifics of things that you think will go wrong?

[xbl]

I meant on here, rather than "out there".

Reynard, HB, Ad Lib, the Pundit, BarrySnotter, Tryfield, DeeGas.

[xbl]

By the way, when HB was offered the floor, did he take it?

[thepundit]

It's frustrating for many Yes voters and is hard to comprehend the notion that would see anyone vote against their own countries independence.

This is compounded by the fact that the No coalition, who feed these folks insecurities and misconceptions with the help of the entire media

This seems to be a common opinion of the Yes support, that No voters are akin to a bunch of god fearing creationists who simply take everything as fact without evidence. (which is obviously incorrect)

Insulting the intelligence of No voters and then trying to convince them to vote Yes might not be the best way to go about it.

[thepundit]

the Pundit

You're obsessed!

[Enigma]

Ned Nederland is doing the Independence thread equivalent of saying "I think we'll loose today, it will probably be a disaster - 3-0" yet offering no reason to back up the assertion, hardly great analysis. That's his right of course but I would be interested to hear why he holds his stated opinions, I don't want to get in any hair splitting shit fest.

[LinkinFighter]

You're obsessed!

I think its you who is obsessed, you post in this thread day after day not saying very much. Just a series of buzzwords and google search jobs.

[caleyjaggi]

I meant on here, rather than "out there".

That's fair enough, P+B and this thread in particular, does seem to be a personal battle at times between posters, which means the quality of debate suffers.

I think if there was balanced media reporting and a grown up debate all round then Yes voters would accept the democratic process, probably not "happily", but we won't see that obviously as that would almost certainly result in a Yes win anyway.

[caleyjaggi]

This seems to be a common opinion of the Yes support, that No voters are akin to a bunch of god fearing creationists who simply take everything as fact without evidence. (which is obviously incorrect)

Insulting the intelligence of No voters and then trying to convince them to vote Yes might not be the best way to go about it.

Not at all, many no voters are intelligent enough to make a fact based decision when able, i mean the ones like yourself that aren't really interested in evidence.

[thepundit]

I think its you who is obsessed, you post in this thread day after day not saying very much. Just a series of buzzwords and google search jobs.

I've not really posted much on this thread over the past week or so but whatever. And I certainly don't constantly go on about other posters which seems to be something the Yes crew do all the time.

Not at all, many no voters are intelligent enough to make a fact based decision when able, i mean the ones like yourself that aren't really interested in evidence.

And where is your 'evidence' of that, given you apparently only make decisions based on fact?

[Gordon EF]

I guess this is already an instance of something I've said being stripped to the bone - if I can be allowed to pull that one back a bit I'll reaffirm that my main fear is that something as big as this has the potential to go very very wrong - no one knows how an independent Scotland would pan out , any decisions made would be done with the country's best interests at heart but do I think we'd get everything right ... no I don't !

That's fair enough I suppose. I know that it's tempting to think that independence is a much higher risk but I'm not sure that's a particulalry solid view apart from 'it's different'. Different doesn't always mean higher risk.

[Ad Lib]

Oh soz, I was referring to Ad Lib's one. I respect the guys opinion on a lot of stuff but just wasn't bothered about reading a post that long.

Nah, I'm calling total bullshit on this.

The post was 189 words long, comprised 10 sentences and was broken into 3 paragraphs. If you're going to call that an "essay" then I'd respectfully* suggest that you wouldn't read rather a lot of posts on this thread, including some of your own.

*Not respectfully. You're buying into absolute horseshit nonsense from xbl that my posts are too long to read. Don't be a w****r.

[wingsoverperthshire]

The thought of an independent Scotland is very appealing - I'd love it to work out !

Do I think there's a high chance of it being an utter disaster - yes !

I've got ten months to be convinced otherwise but the 'reasons' that have been chucked back at me so far (that I've got low self-esteem and I'm a 'shitebag') are falling well short of the mark !

It's a No from me

The most sensible place to start is on financials. Since Scotland is richer per head than the sum of the UK ( don't think even Unionists disagree with this) we would have more money to go around. Scotland is the 6th richest country in the world and the UK the 16th. We are simply gifted to live in a really rich country with diversified exports and enormous untapped potential (We've practically ignored China and Brazil). Financially the UK is completely viable, although terribly run and Scotland would be considerably more viable. If you don't believe me lets see what Project fear leading figures thing about an independent Scotland:

“Supporters of independence will always cite examples of small, independent and thriving economies, such as Switzerland and Norway. It would be wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another such successful, independent country” - David Cameron (April 2007)

Alistair Darling Michael Moore, Ruth Davidson have all stated exactly the same (and direct quotes can be provided) Which begs the question.....If even the most ardent of Unionists, politicians who twist and fiddle words openly admit that an Independent Scotland will do just fine, what exactly are you scared off ?

Next, I would encourage you to think whether you're happy with what being part of the union provides Scotland? We often ask for a positive case for the union on here and nearly 1100 pages we're still waiting. Whenever I drive around Scotland I see an utterly stunning countryside vistas, and unfortunately hundreds of really run down drab, villages, towns and city estates. Why? Because Scots like living in squallar, or because the UK governments only plan is to grow the City of London, to the detriment of all others. We're voting to determine which government will control Fiscal (government expenditure +tax) issues. Perhaps you think the tax fiddling MP's and the Lords provide value for money for Scotland? I sure as hell don't. Independence will allow us to grow the economy, diversify, and reduce portfolio risk we currently experience by putting all our eggs into financial services and corporate greed.

Have a look at the pre-devolution scaremongering about how Scotland couldn't possibly have devolved powers, how it would be a 'disaster'. Roll on 15 years and you're just repeating the same sound-bites you've picked up from the media. We've done just fine with Justice, Health, Education there is no logical reason why we wouldn't make a similar success with Defence and the economy.

I encourage you to vote Yes, as we've everything to gain and absolutely nothing to lose.

[Syd Barrett]

The most sensible place to start is on financials. Since Scotland is richer per head than the sum of the UK ( don't think even Unionists disagree with this) we would have more money to go around. Scotland is the 6th richest country in the world and the UK the 16th. We are simply gifted to live in a really rich country with diversified exports and enormous untapped potential (We've practically ignored China and Brazil). Financially the UK is completely viable, although terribly run and Scotland would be considerably more viable. If you don't believe me lets see what Project fear leading figures thing about an independent Scotland:

“Supporters of independence will always cite examples of small, independent and thriving economies, such as Switzerland and Norway. It would be wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another such successful, independent country” - David Cameron (April 2007)

Alistair Darling Michael Moore, Ruth Davidson have all stated exactly the same (and direct quotes can be provided) Which begs the question.....If even the most ardent of Unionists, politicians who twist and fiddle words openly admit that an Independent Scotland will do just fine, what exactly are you scared off ?

Next, I would encourage you to think whether you're happy with what being part of the union provides Scotland? We often ask for a positive case for the union on here and nearly 1100 pages we're still waiting. Whenever I drive around Scotland I see an utterly stunning countryside vistas, and unfortunately hundreds of really run down drab, villages, towns and city estates. Why? Because Scots like living in squallar, or because the UK governments only plan is to grow the City of London, to the detriment of all others. We're voting to determine which government will control Fiscal (government expenditure +tax) issues. Perhaps you think the tax fiddling MP's and the Lords provide value for money for Scotland? I sure as hell don't. Independence will allow us to grow the economy, diversify, and reduce portfolio risk we currently experience by putting all our eggs into financial services and corporate greed.

Have a look at the pre-devolution scaremongering about how Scotland couldn't possibly have devolved powers, how it would be a 'disaster'. Roll on 15 years and you're just repeating the same sound-bites you've picked up from the media. We've done just fine with Justice, Health, Education there is no logical reason why we wouldn't make a similar success with Defence and the economy.

I encourage you to vote Yes, as we've everything to gain and absolutely nothing to lose.

A very well put post. The Yes campaign need to go on the offensive and tell people they will not be worse off financially. I'm in the Yes camp however my mrs is bricking it that we will lose our tax credits and pay higher taxes. It is people's fear of massive change that will make them vote no. It's perfectly understandable. Despite the harsh economic climate we are doing ok and she thinks independence could change that. The Yes campaign need to convince people like here. I'll always vote yes because I've always been a nationalist.

[Ad Lib]

Looking forward to SodjesSixteenIncher ignoring that post from perthshirebell. That's 427 words long. Almost two and a half times as long as the "essay" I wrote. I'm looking forward to some consistency here.

[xbl]

Looking forward to SodjesSixteenIncher ignoring that post from perthshirebell. That's 427 words long. Almost two and a half times as long as the "essay" I wrote. I'm looking forward to some consistency here.

No. You don't get it, do you? No matter how many times we've tried to explain. Its not about length, its about difficulty. You write terrible posts. They are boring, difficult to follow, and like reading a research paper. You've even said you WANT your posts to be hard to read.

[Ad Lib]

No. You don't get it, do you? No matter how many times we've tried to explain. Its not about length, its about difficulty. You write terrible posts. They are boring, difficult to follow, and like reading a research paper. You've even said you WANT your posts to be hard to read.

Please provide evidence that my 189 word post was "boring" "difficult to follow" or "like reading a research paper" or learn how to read.

K thnx bai.

[Mr Bairn]

By the way, I'm not sure that the no campaign actually need to provide a positive case. They are the status quo and the burden of proof is on the yes campaign.

Having said that, I think independence is pretty inevitable, if not in 2016, then in the next 10 years or so. The reason being that polls show that if independence was proven to be no different economically from remaining in the union, around 65% would like the idea of being independent.

I personally don't support independence, mainly because I don't want the English and Welsh to be foreigners, but I'm now thinking I might vote yes just to put the matter to bed.

[Gordon EF]

Please provide evidence that my 189 word post was "boring" "difficult to follow" or "like reading a research paper" or learn how to read.

K thnx bai.

Be honest,reading quite a lot of your posts is like performing root canal on yourself with a spoon. Lots of people will skip your posts whether, individually, they're reasonable or not.