Independence - how would you vote?

[Ad Lib]

Not everything can be explained logically.

Or, in your case, at all.

[xbl]

Or, in your case, at all.

Did you choose your team? And if so, how?

[Shuggie_Murray7]

I didn't think this thread could get any more tedious than yesterday, I was wrong.

[Ad Lib]

Did you choose your team? And if so, how?

Yes, I chose my team. I initially followed Raith Rovers because I lived in Kirkcaldy and they were the nearest place I could go to watch professional football and sort-of Dundee United because it was the first kit my mum bought me when I was 4 (no idea why, she's a Dunfermline fan...). I only attended a handful of games. I then chose to follow Aberdeen for a bit because they were the only professional football team near where I lived, they had a really good club for their young supporters with training camps, cheap season tickets and such-like, and I wanted to be a goalkeeper like Jim Leighton. I started to follow Partick Thistle because my dad was a fan, and one of his assistants encouraged me to watch them (he was a fan) as a way of getting back into watching football after I'd stopped for quite a while (I got into rugby). The bug bit, in part because I'd got to know about Thistle quite a lot and to play with them in various football management games and I became a habitual follower. I am now a season-ticket holder of 4 years standing.

I think it would take A LOT more for me to alter my preferences away from Thistle than from the other teams or any future teams, because I'm more vested in football than I was before. But it's a clear preference based on habitual behaviour, and one I can explain rationally that way. What I won't do is say that Scottish football should be moulded around my experience and internal attachments in respect of it. My attitude towards Scottish football is shaped by what I think is best for the game as a whole in light of the particular experience I have as a fan of a first division club.

By the same measure, I don't think my habitual sense of belonging to any group identity commands any moral force or relevance to the independence debate. Clearly my habitual institutional allegiances and identity will shape the way I perceive the facts around the independence debate, but it doesn't stop me from viewing it for what it is: a debate about statehood, not about nations. It's about what, logically and rationally, delivers the best form of government for the groups of people of which I am, by habit, a part. I don't think nations command any moral force or sense of ownership over the identity of people. I feel a bit Scottish, a bit Glaswegian, a bit British, a bit European, a bit "of the Western World", a bit "West End", a bit North East (though I hate the Aberdonian accent) and a bit Fifer. They're just habitual connections. They can change and evolve with my own experience. They don't define my shoe size; they're just the footprints I've left.

[Paulo Sergio]

I didn't think this thread could get any more tedious than yesterday, I was wrong.

I have nothing against Ad Lib, but he has bored me off this thread in the past couple of days.

[Swampy]

I have nothing against Ad Lib, but he has bored me off this thread in the past couple of days.

That's entirely the goal here.

[Paulo Sergio]

That's entirely the goal here.

I knew that was coming!

[xbl]

Ad Lib, I didn't pick my team. I didn't particularly support any one team when I was in primary school, I kept a vague eye out for Dundee Utd and Aberdeen, but one day back in 97, I decided that they were my team, and they have been ever since.

Cold logic only goes so far, sometimes you need to go by instinct, feeling, and heart. If you can't see that then you are an inferior human being.

[Todders]

Maybe it's just a kneejerk and when the outrage over the welfare reforms dies it'll have no lasting effect, but I've had a few who were undecided or not politically engaged saying they're now voting Yes for the opportunity to be permanently rid of governments Scotland haven't voted for. We'll see how much the anti-Tory element can be capitalised on.

You think the Torys are finished with their assault on the welfare state and public services?

I fear they've only just got going.

[Todders]

Can't really be doing with the semantic arguments about countries, nations and nation states.

Scotland has had to suffer years of rule by governments that its people have voted against - this is our chance to put a stop to that.

Why people want to continue with a situation that sees their votes continually ignored is beyond me.

It's an opportunity to take part in a democracy that will be more direct than we've ever seen.

Vote Yes now, and your vote will count forever - vote No, and continue to be ignored and walked over.

AdLib seems to constantly argue semantics rather than actual issues...which is why I usually completely skip over his tedium.

[Ad Lib]

Ad Lib, I didn't pick my team. I didn't particularly support any one team when I was in primary school, I kept a vague eye out for Dundee Utd and Aberdeen, but one day back in 97, I decided that they were my team, and they have been ever since.

M'kay...

Cold logic only goes so far, sometimes you need to go by instinct, feeling, and heart. If you can't see that then you are an inferior human being.

It's not "cold" logic. Habit is a human phenomenon. It's something that makes people happy, so they don't fight it. But independence isn't about habit. indeed as an idea in the Scottish context it is precisely about challenging habit! Habit doesn't command a moral force. Your feelings of attachment to the Scottish nation don't justify a question that isn't about identity. It's a more complex derivative of identity and structural understanding. It's like the vote on whether to let Rangers in to the SFL. I hate Rangers. For many habitual reasons and many logical ones. But if I were an SFL chairman would I have voted to let them in at SFL3? Yeah, absolutely. Because it makes rational sense to do that even though I hate them. It benefits the other clubs and notwithstanding their previous incarnation's wrongdoing, they remain a better candidate than any of the alternatives.

I still hate Rangers. Some of that hate is irrational. But I don't let it cloud questions that are, at best, derivatives, of "do I hate Rangers".

In this analogy, hating Rangers is "feeling Scottish".

[vikingTON]

M'kay...

It's not "cold" logic. Habit is a human phenomenon. It's something that makes people happy, so they don't fight it. But independence isn't about habit. indeed as an idea in the Scottish context it is precisely about challenging habit! Habit doesn't command a moral force. Your feelings of attachment to the Scottish nation don't justify a question that isn't about identity. It's a more complex derivative of identity and structural understanding. It's like the vote on whether to let Rangers in to the SFL. I hate Rangers. For many habitual reasons and many logical ones. But if I were an SFL chairman would I have voted to let them in at SFL3? Yeah, absolutely. Because it makes rational sense to do that even though I hate them. It benefits the other clubs and notwithstanding their previous incarnation's wrongdoing, they remain a better candidate than any of the alternatives.

I still hate Rangers. Some of that hate is irrational. But I don't let it cloud questions that are, at best, derivatives, of "do I hate Rangers".

In this analogy, hating Rangers is "feeling Scottish".

Your analogy is shite and I couldn't care less about your initial 'point' regardless. Must do better.

Yup.

I see Yorkshire got rolled out of the broom closet by H_B earlier: we'll be back to the 'why shouldn't Shetland form a state?" non-argument soon enough. Absolutely no-one is impressed.

[Ivo den Bieman]

[H_B]

I see Yorkshire got rolled out of the broom closet by H_B earlier:

It was actually referred to by Ad Lib before me, but it it absolutely crucial as to the point being discussed here.

Why would Scotland have any "right" that Yorkshire does not to determine its own destiny?

[invergowrie arab]

Of course Yorkshire should have the right to secede should the majority of their population agree to that.

It would be a lot easier for Scotland as we already have our own pre-exisitng legal, education, banking (no laughing at the back)framework and a massive variety of civic and cultural institutions.

[invergowrie arab]

In this analogy, hating Rangers is "feeling Scottish".

That doesn't just work as an analogy.

[H_B]

Of course Yorkshire should have the right to secede should the majority of their population agree to that.

Yes, I agree.

[DeeGas]

If the majority of Scottish vote to leave the Union then there will be a big minority who would of voted to stay in the Union.Probably.

If these people were to move to certain areas/counties of Scotland,then it may only be a matter of time before these areas vote to secede from Scotland and back into the Union.

Scotland would begin to fall apart.

The independent Scotland thing just won't work and the Scottish people will see this and vote accordingly.

[xbl]

It was actually referred to by Ad Lib before me, but it it absolutely crucial as to the point being discussed here.

Why would Scotland have any "right" that Yorkshire does not to determine its own destiny?

Ah yes, those famous reading problems of yours.

Ad Lib is perfectly correct here incidentally.

And the most crucial aspect you haven't addressed xbl. Why shouldn't the people of Yorkshire have the same rights as the people of Scotland in this regard?

Why can't they? If there is a desire amongst the people who live in Yorkshire to be an independent state, is there any reason that they cant be a country?

If the people of Yorkshire wanted to be a country, if they voted independence supporting MPs, then yes, Yorkshire could be an independent nation, no reason why not. But of course, they don't because Yorkshire isn't a country, it is a province. Both in reality and in the heart of those that live there.

[xbl]

M'kay...

It's not "cold" logic. Habit is a human phenomenon. It's something that makes people happy, so they don't fight it. But independence isn't about habit. indeed as an idea in the Scottish context it is precisely about challenging habit! Habit doesn't command a moral force. Your feelings of attachment to the Scottish nation don't justify a question that isn't about identity.

1. Your analogy is utter shit.

2. I didn't "choose" my team in that I don't have any clearly defined reasons as to why Arbroath and not, say, Dundee. It was a decision based on instinct and gut feeling. I make my key decisions based on a ghra mo chroi, rather than by weighing up probabilities. This is what makes me human, rather than an unloved, unfeeling robot.