Independence - how would you vote?

[vikingTON]

It was actually referred to by Ad Lib before me, but it it absolutely crucial as to the point being discussed here.

Why would Scotland have any "right" that Yorkshire does not to determine its own destiny?

Of itself, it doesn't. Scotland however has maintained its distinct national institutions, historically established, and then re-defined its position through the Constitutional Convention of the late 1980s, devolution, and the unprecedented success of the Scottish National Party. English regions have little to know historically defined place as an independent country, have had no such self-determination established through a constitutional convention, and have absolutely hee-haw popular support for such a move.

As ever, you're hoping for Shetland when the scenario is in fact 'Slovakia'.

[Colkitto]

If the majority of Scottish vote to leave the Union then there will be a big minority who would of voted to stay in the Union.Probably.

If these people were to move to certain areas/counties of Scotland,then it may only be a matter of time before these areas vote to secede from Scotland and back into the Union.

Scotland would begin to fall apart.

The independent Scotland thing just won't work and the Scottish people will see this and vote accordingly.

There is more chance of London going it alone than Scotland falling apart. Infact there's people talking about this scenario right now!

With an independent Scotland and an England without London England could end up in very dire straights indeed.

[Ad Lib]

Of itself, it doesn't. Scotland however has maintained its distinct national institutions, historically established, and then re-defined its position through the Constitutional Convention of the late 1980s, devolution, and the unprecedented success of the Scottish National Party. English regions have little to know historically defined place as an independent country, have had no such self-determination established through a constitutional convention, and have absolutely hee-haw popular support for such a move.

As ever, you're hoping for Shetland when the scenario is in fact 'Slovakia'.

Why does "having distinct national institutions" affect whether or not Scotland should or should not self-determine to be independent though? What is it about having these institutions that creates a moral imperative to become independent if you are Scotland, but not Yorkshire?

Please note, we're not saying that Yorkshire should become an independent state. We're asking you to justify WHY Scotland's sense of nation and its "national" institutions are relevant to the question of sovereign statehood. Make the link. Show your working.

I suspect when it comes down to it, the working actually vindicates what I said all along. It's not about nations (per se). It's about the political territorial group being normatively distinct and instrumentally better able to govern. It's about the principles of good democratic government responsive to the needs of the populus and not as simple as "Norway is a nation and it's independent and we're a nation so we should be independent" as xbl is saying.

We can only conclude, therefore, that the valid, logical and persuasive argument for Scottish independence involves addressing the issues I raised and not resorting to an emotive cop-out like he did.

[DeeGas]

There is more chance of London going it alone than Scotland falling apart. Infact there's people talking about this scenario right now!

With an independent Scotland and an England without London England could end up in very dire straights indeed.

The SNP,by trying to break up the Union will also split Scotland.

Stands to reason because if the republicans get their way,there will be a big minority against em.

[MassiveFanDan]

Why don't the Yes campaign have posters up everywhere saying:

"Independence: It's about the political territorial group being normatively distinct and instrumentally better able to govern."

They are missing a trick I reckon.

[MassiveFanDan]

The SNP,by trying to break up the Union will also split Scotland.

Only unionists have shown any desire to split up Scotland so far.

[Colkitto]

The SNP,by trying to break up the Union will also split Scotland.

Stands to reason because if the republicans get their way,there will be a big minority against em.

Stephanie Flanders of the BBC did a piece only this week about London going it alone.

Good chance England will fragment when Scotland leaves the Union for good. London, Cornwall could be the first to leave a sinking ship

[Ad Lib]

Why don't the Yes campaign have posters up everywhere saying:

"Independence: It's about the political territorial group being normatively distinct and instrumentally better able to govern."

They are missing a trick I reckon.

They wouldn't have to phrase it like that. It would be along the lines of:

"Independence: because we can rule ourselves better"

[H_B]

Stephanie Flanders of the BBC did a piece only this week about London going it alone.

Good chance England will fragment when Scotland leaves the Union for good. London, Cornwall could be the first to leave a sinking ship

Wibble

[H_B]

Ah yes, those famous reading problems of yours.If the people of Yorkshire wanted to be a country, if they voted independence supporting MPs, then yes, Yorkshire could be an independent nation, no reason why not

Actually there is.

The people of Yorkshire have no right to self-determination under the UN charter. The principle of territorial integrity still applies.

[xbl]

Actually there is.

The people of Yorkshire have no right to self-determination under the UN charter. The principle of territorial integrity still applies.

I see its going to be time for that quote in my signature again...

[H_B]

I see its going to be time for that quote in my signature again...

I know you don't like your factually inaccurate posts to be corrected, but I make no apology for doing so.

[xbl]

I know you don't like your factually inaccurate posts to be corrected, but I make no apology for doing so.

So you are saying that if everyone in Yorkshire got together, voted for Yorkshire Independence MPs, campaigned for independence for Yorkshire, then they would have no right to self determination? Absolute pish.

[H_B]

So you are saying that if everyone in Yorkshire got together, voted for Yorkshire Independence MPs, campaigned for independence for Yorkshire, then they would have no right to self determination? Absolute pish.

That's correct. They have no right to self-determination.

That's not the same as saying they would not be allowed to choose this path, but it wouldn't be one they could expect the UN to intervene on their behalf on.

[Paulo Sergio]

If the majority of Scottish vote to leave the Union then there will be a big minority who would of voted to stay in the Union.Probably.

If these people were to move to certain areas/counties of Scotland,then it may only be a matter of time before these areas vote to secede from Scotland and back into the Union.

Scotland would begin to fall apart.

The independent Scotland thing just won't work and the Scottish people will see this and vote accordingly.

Still looking for bites.

[xbl]

That's correct. They have no right to self-determination.

That's not the same as saying they would not be allowed to choose this path, but it wouldn't be one they could expect the UN to intervene on their behalf on.

Right. So what does absolutely pointless lawyery technicality have to do with reality? Or anything?

[Ad Lib]

Right. So what does absolutely pointless lawyery technicality have to do with reality? Or anything?

It means if the state of which Yorkshire was a part told them "eh, nah, you're not getting to f**k off" there would be nothing in international law to require a response from any other party to call upon the UK/England to relent and respect the political will of the people of Yorkshire.

[xbl]

It means if the state of which Yorkshire was a part told them "eh, nah, you're not getting to f**k off" there would be nothing in international law to require a response from any other party to call upon the UK/England to relent and respect the political will of the people of Yorkshire.

Right, so nobody has the right to self determination unless they are backed up by the massed armies of the UN? Is this what you are seriously saying?

[Wee Bully]

This has gone horribly for Ad Lib. No amount of text can hide the fact he is a moron.

[Ad Lib]

Right, so nobody has the right to self determination unless they are backed up by the massed armies of the UN? Is this what you are seriously saying?

The right to self-determination is a legal construct that the UN created for nations in international law. If other bodies want to recognise the right to self-determination for peoples that don't qualify as nations, that's entirely up to them and if they have the power, whether under international law or domestic law to do it, great.