ayrmad Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) Not often I agree with VT but he's on the nail with this one. I don't play FOBT's but if I fancied doing it I don't want to not be able to because some people have a problem with it. People have a problem with alcohol. While I agree the concentration of bookmakers in Dundee is quite high compare it to licenced premises in the same area - there's twice as many of them. It's OK though because alcohol never has any negative effects on peoples standard of living? The crack cocaine talk earlier in the thread is also wildly off the mark. It's probably better not to compare a destructive, illegal substance to a machine that will not harm anything apart from your bank balance that you have to play to lose. Like VT, you fail to understand what others are saying, there are only 33000 of these things,they are highly addictive, I've certainly never mentioned or intimated banning gambling, I've mentioned that fobt's are highly addictive and would gladly see them banned, the £2 stake limit would be fine as well. If a highly addictive form of alcohol hit the market I'd be taking the same stance. The bolded part doesn't do anything for your argument other than make you look stupid. Edited November 9, 2013 by ayrmad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gus Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 All forms of alcohol are highly addictive to a certain type of person - the type of person with an addictive personality. So is overeating. Smoking. Gambling. Taking illegal drugs. All have a negative impact on your life in some way but from what I grasp what VT is getting at why can't I partake in these "Leisure pursuits" with a degree of self control just because others cannot? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gus Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 On the "crack" thing it's just a commonly missused phrase. Fixed odds betting terminals are not in comparison to a highly dangerous and illegal substance so making that comparison just makes the person look a bit stupid I would say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) All forms of alcohol are highly addictive to a certain type of person - the type of person with an addictive personality. So is overeating. Smoking. Gambling. Taking illegal drugs. All have a negative impact on your life in some way but from what I grasp what VT is getting at why can't I partake in these "Leisure pursuits" with a degree of self control just because others cannot? All forms of gambling are highly addictive to a certain type of person, fobt's are highly addictive to plenty who've happily gambled trouble free for decades. On the "crack" thing it's just a commonly missused phrase. Fixed odds betting terminals are not in comparison to a highly dangerous and illegal substance so making that comparison just makes the person look a bit stupid I would say. You're highlighting you're stupidity again, it's the addictiveness compared to other drugs / forms of gambling where a comparison is being drawn. You like plenty of others that don't have a clue appear to think those afflicted by compulsive gambling are only affecting themselves, many dual addicted and their nearest and dearest feel the gambling is far worse than the cocaine/heroin/alcohol addiction they're also afflicted with Edited November 9, 2013 by ayrmad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambie's Pigeon Feed Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 In what way is this different from licensed premises selling alcohol? Do you think JD Wetherspoons give a toss about the jakeys swilling in their pubs each day, or where they got their money from? It is entirely different. Nobody is talking about banning gambling, they are talking about banning or limiting a specific type of gambling which has a detrimental effect on society through it's accessibility, its addictiveness and its ability to ruin someone in minutes. There is no alcohol comparison that can be made, you have to get into ridiculous hypotheticals about a new booze that is much more accessible, damaging to health and addictive than others. You can find high stakes FOBTs in casinos, anyone with the money and motivation can go there. Putting them in desperate areas with desperate people is proving to be a recipe for disaster. I would legalise all drugs. I wouldn't have Happy Shoppers promoting heroin and being allowed to open multiple stores in deprived areas riddled with desperate addicts. Think of that as the FOBT equivalent. I would happily allow Amsterdam style coffee shops for weed. Think of that as your horse racing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gus Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) Jesus. Read this slowly and let is sink in. A human being gets physically addicted to things like crack cocaine. They do not get physically addicted to FOBTS. I know where you are coming from - the mental part of addiction is probably the strongest part of it - as someone who smokes but would like to stop I know it is the physical side of the addiction to nicotine that keeps me smoking as in my head I know I should stop but I am physically addicted to nicotine now. You cannot get physically addicted to a gambling machine. It is not possible. So while I agree that the mental "in your head" part of an addiction is the driving force comparing a fixed odds betting terminal with a substance you become physically addicted to is not a good comparison. Edited November 9, 2013 by Big Gus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 It is entirely different. Nobody is talking about banning gambling, they are talking about banning or limiting a specific type of gambling which has a detrimental effect on society through it's accessibility, its addictiveness and its ability to ruin someone in minutes. There is no alcohol comparison that can be made, you have to get into ridiculous hypotheticals about a new booze that is much more accessible, damaging to health and addictive than others. You can find high stakes FOBTs in casinos, anyone with the money and motivation can go there. Putting them in desperate areas with desperate people is proving to be a recipe for disaster. I would legalise all drugs. I wouldn't have Happy Shoppers promoting heroin and being allowed to open multiple stores in deprived areas riddled with desperate addicts. Think of that as the FOBT equivalent. I would happily allow Amsterdam style coffee shops for weed. Think of that as your horse racing. Totally agree. And a very good post overall. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) Jesus. Read this slowly and let is sink in. A human being gets physically addicted to things like crack cocaine. They do not get physically addicted to FOBTS. I know where you are coming from - the mental part of addiction is probably the strongest part of it - as someone who smokes but would like to stop I know it is the physical side of the addiction to nicotine that keeps me smoking as in my head I know I should stop but I am physically addicted to nicotine now. You cannot get physically addicted to a gambling machine. It is not possible. So while I agree that the mental "in your head" part of an addiction is the driving force comparing a fixed odds betting terminal with a substance you become physically addicted to is not a good comparison. Do you actually have a clue about addiction, the bolded part is utter claptrap. Is it sky fairies that are causing the addiction? Edited November 9, 2013 by ayrmad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Jesus. Read this slowly and let is sink in. A human being gets physically addicted to things like crack cocaine. They do not get physically addicted to FOBTS. I know where you are coming from - the mental part of addiction is probably the strongest part of it - as someone who smokes but would like to stop I know it is the physical side of the addiction to nicotine that keeps me smoking as in my head I know I should stop but I am physically addicted to nicotine now. You cannot get physically addicted to a gambling machine. It is not possible. So while I agree that the mental "in your head" part of an addiction is the driving force comparing a fixed odds betting terminal with a substance you become physically addicted to is not a good comparison. To be honest, Im not sure you understand addiction. The effect of being addicted to a substance is just like being addicted to something intangible.It still stimulates your brain the same way and it is just as hard to kick, as far as I know. I'm no expert on this, so I can't claim any deep knowledge here though. However, with any physical addiction, the biggest issue is mental, not physical. So I don't see a gambling addiction as any less addictive or serious than (say) smoking, just because you can't physically see what you are doing to your body. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gus Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 You just keep saying I'm "talking rubbish" but you need to expand on exactly why then. Explain to me how a physical addiction to something like drugs, alcohol or ciggies is the same as a mental addiction to gambling. I'm not taking the piss I'd just be really interested to hear your points on it as you obviously feel strongly enough about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gus Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 To be honest, Im not sure you understand addiction. The effect of being addicted to a substance is just like being addicted to something intangible. It still stimulates your brain the same way and it is just as hard to kick, as far as I know. I'm no expert on this, so I can't claim any deep knowledge here though. However, with any physical addiction, the biggest issue is mental, not physical. So I don't see a gambling addiction as any less addictive or serious than (say) smoking, just because you can't physically see what you are doing to your body. A lot of what you say is on point - I said that it's not as simple as just physical and mental - the two are tied in when you look at drink/drugs but not gambling. If you lock a drug addict in a room and deprive them of their fix they become phycially unwell in the short term - ill. Their body physically requires the substance. If you lock someone addicted to FOBTs in a room you'd be doing them the same favour of depriving them their "fix" however they would not suffer any physical effects. Psychological - yes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 You just keep saying I'm "talking rubbish" but you need to expand on exactly why then. Explain to me how a physical addiction to something like drugs, alcohol or ciggies is the same as a mental addiction to gambling. I'm not taking the piss I'd just be really interested to hear your points on it as you obviously feel strongly enough about it. Im no expert here, but I can take a shot. Essentially, the effect of something like smoking is to take over the brain so that you can't function without it. It is shown in activations of regions of the brain in neuro imaging scans. Other addictions also show up as taking over the brain in exactly the same way. Including gambling I believe. So your brain is unable to function without its "fix" as the addiction has control over brain activation. It needs its fix to function. It doesn't matter if that fix is nicotine or a bet on something, its a similar effect. Its exactly the same as smoking. All addictions are physical and all addictions are mental. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 You just keep saying I'm "talking rubbish" but you need to expand on exactly why then. Explain to me how a physical addiction to something like drugs, alcohol or ciggies is the same as a mental addiction to gambling. I'm not taking the piss I'd just be really interested to hear your points on it as you obviously feel strongly enough about it. It's the brain that drives all addictions, I look at my addiction in exactly the same way as a heroin addict, I have the same addiction I just choose a different stimulant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) A lot of what you say is on point - I said that it's not as simple as just physical and mental - the two are tied in when you look at drink/drugs but not gambling. If you lock a drug addict in a room and deprive them of their fix they become phycially unwell in the short term - ill. Their body physically requires the substance. If you lock someone addicted to FOBTs in a room you'd be doing them the same favour of depriving them their "fix" however they would not suffer any physical effects. Psychological - yes. Im not so sure about that. Shakes, withdrawal symptoms, elevated stress and heartbeat, angst. Ill have a look and see if google has a link, as this isn't my speciality.Eta, it seems those symptoms exist: http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Gambling_Addiction/forum/15927776-withdrawal Edited November 9, 2013 by xbl 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gus Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) It's the brain that drives all addictions, I look at my addiction in exactly the same way as a heroin addict, I have the same addiction I just choose a different stimulant. A heroin addict is driven mentally by their addiction but it is mostly physical. They feel unwell when not on it hence the common junkie phrase of "I'm rattling...." It physically drives people to desperation and crime, now it has already been said in the thread that a lot of people have direct experience of how desperate someone addicted to gambling gets and that also leads to crime but I've yet to come across people begging for money in the street to satisfy their Fixed Odds fix. Edited November 9, 2013 by Big Gus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gus Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Im not so sure about that. Shakes, withdrawal symptoms, elevated stress and heartbeat, angst. Ill have a look and see if google has a link, as this isn't my speciality. Eta, it seems those symptoms exist: http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Gambling_Addiction/forum/15927776-withdrawal Cheers - interesting read. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambie's Pigeon Feed Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 A heroin addict is driven mentally by their addiction but it is mostly physical. They feel unwell when not on it hence the common junkie phrase of "I'm rattling...." It physically drives people to desperation and crime, now it has already been said in the thread that a lot of people have direct experience of how desperate someone addicted to gambling gets and that also leads to crime but I've yet to come across people begging for money in the street to satisfy their Fixed Odds fix. Because you are never going to get enough money to satisfy your FOBT fix from begging in the street so it will never satisfy the fix? Your mental/physical analogy regarding heroin sounds bollocks, I'm sure someone who knows more about it will be along to confirm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeeperDee Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Any addiction has a degree of withdrawal symptoms. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) A heroin addict is driven mentally by their addiction but it is mostly physical. They feel unwell when not on it hence the common junkie phrase of "I'm rattling...." It physically drives people to desperation and crime, now it has already been said in the thread that a lot of people have direct experience of how desperate someone addicted to gambling gets and that also leads to crime but I've yet to come across people begging for money in the street to satisfy their Fixed Odds fix. If I can have one more go at breaking it down (apologies for repetition). In laymans terms (which is all I have knowledge of), something like smoking or heroin sends pleasure signals to the brain, just the same as fatty food, alcohol, and other physical things. Over time with some people, then they get dependent on it, wither it is because of circumstances in their lives, personality quirks, or simple escapism, because they need that good feeling. And to keep the rush and the good feeling going, then they have to keep taking it. This is the physical addiction you are speaking of. Gambling appears to be no different. It sends pleasure signals to the brain, and to feed that fix, you need that excitement and the chance of winning. Neuro-imaging seems to show similar levels of brain activation. If you don't get that fix, then you can't function and you get the withdrawal symptoms like you do with other addictions. Furthermore, problem gamblers take out huge loans, conceal debts from their loved ones, sell their possessions to feed their habit, and beg, steal and lie to get more money to feed that addiction. Just like with something like a heroin addiction. To tie that in with FOBTs (which I should emphasise, I don't have any experience of or strong opinions about), they are particularly designed to stimulate in this kind of way. An instant fix, no waiting, pleasure in the games, and significantly, lots of lowball payouts to encourage you and make people feel even better when they win, but ultimately, hugely costly. ETA, if someone with an actual qualified knowledge can clarify any bollocks I might have talked in this post, or explain it in a better way, feel free! Edited November 9, 2013 by xbl 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gus Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) Because you are never going to get enough money to satisfy your FOBT fix from begging in the street so it will never satisfy the fix? Your mental/physical analogy regarding heroin sounds bollocks, I'm sure someone who knows more about it will be along to confirm. As I said, I'm certainly not posting from some sort of lofty knowledge viewpoint - it's as grey an area to me as while I can relate it to my own addictions such as cigarettes and agree that there is a large degree of "in your head" in any scenario like that I still see it as being different to a physical addiction to a substance. Happy to be educated on it as it is something I don't have huge knowledge on. How about coffee? Does anyone not work with someone who cannot function without a cup or two in the morning? I work with loads of people like that - they are physically addicted to coffee. While someone who actually knows about addiction will probably come along and point out that it all physical addictions start "in your head" and are driven as such the mental side is only a part of it - there is a very strong physical side to substance addiction be it fags, booze, drugs, coffee and that is different from a psychological addiction which can manifest itself in different ways - gambling being one of them. My initial point is as someone who can gamble in moderation and only with money they have "spare" I don't like to think my choices should be inhibited because other people cannot do it responsibly. That would be like shutting every pub because there's quite a lot of alchys. Edited November 9, 2013 by Big Gus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.