Liverpool City Council Ban FOBTs In Betting Shops

[54_and_counting]

The point is if I wanted to play a FOBT I should be allowed to do so. This thread is fairly amusing with all it's "can't watch a telly without the bookies shoving odds down your throat!"

Funny enough every other company trying to sell you a product does the same thing and most of their products are disposable "use once" deals.

There will always be people who have a problem with things like gambling like people can have a problem with drink or overeating chocolate and chippers so they become a huge obese c**t that drains the public purse when their health obviously goes bad due to their lifestyle.

Man, there's like 3 chip shops within a mile of me! And loads of places that sell chinese, kebabs and pizzas!

Ban this sick filth.

You missed the point completely mate

[ayrmad]

A heroin addict is driven mentally by their addiction but it is mostly physical. They feel unwell when not on it hence the common junkie phrase of "I'm rattling...." It physically drives people to desperation and crime, now it has already been said in the thread that a lot of people have direct experience of how desperate someone addicted to gambling gets and that also leads to crime but I've yet to come across people begging for money in the street to satisfy their Fixed Odds fix.

I've sold my soul more times than I care to remember, the herion addict just has more physical side effects with their addiction.

You speak to me for half an hour and you'll just think I'm a normal guy that's slightly louder and more animated than most, when I was in action I was capable of anything, begging on the streets is the least of the publics concerns regarding the conduct of addicts.

[KeeperDee]

Im no expert here, but I can take a shot. Essentially, the effect of something like smoking is to take over the brain so that you can't function without it. It is shown in activations of regions of the brain in neuro imaging scans. Other addictions also show up as taking over the brain in exactly the same way. Including gambling I believe.

So your brain is unable to function without its "fix" as the addiction has control over brain activation. It needs its fix to function. It doesn't matter if that fix is nicotine or a bet on something, its a similar effect.

Its exactly the same as smoking. All addictions are physical and all addictions are mental.

Gambling, like anything that elicits a pleasure response has a chemical effect on the brain (release of dopamine) and with every bet placed the response gets weaker, hence why people do it alot; to get the same thrill. This is same reaction for all addictions. When the brain is prevented from this chemical release then it starts producing symptoms that are common with withdrawal to try and get you to partake in the activity you find pleasurable.

Literally anything you do you can become addicted to, it just depends how susceptible you are to dopamine and other "reward" chemicals in the brain.

Addiction starts in the brain. It's all biological.

[KeeperDee]

Overall I agree with you Xbl. Just to point that out. You were spot on in your explanation.

[ayrmad]

As I said, I'm certainly not posting from some sort of lofty knowledge viewpoint - it's as grey an area to me as while I can relate it to my own addictions such as cigarettes and agree that there is a large degree of "in your head" in any scenario like that I still see it as being different to a physical addiction to a substance.

Happy to be educated on it as it is something I don't have huge knowledge on.

How about coffee? Does anyone not work with someone who cannot function without a cup or two in the morning? I work with loads of people like that - they are physically addicted to coffee. While someone who actually knows about addiction will probably come along and point out that it all physical addictions start "in your head" and are driven as such the mental side is only a part of it - there is a very strong physical side to substance addiction be it fags, booze, drugs, coffee and that is different from a psychological addiction which can manifest itself in different ways - gambling being one of them.

My initial point is as someone who can gamble in moderation and only with money they have "spare" I don't like to think my choices should be inhibited because other people cannot do it responsibly.

That would be like shutting every pub because there's quite a lot of alchys.

I was only a bit harsh earlier to be kind, with VT I've just let him continue to post point and laugh material continually, most will not realise it's point n laugh but those that know will.

[ayrmad]

If I can have one more go at breaking it down (apologies for repetition). In laymans terms (which is all I have knowledge of), something like smoking or heroin sends pleasure signals to the brain, just the same as fatty food, alcohol, and other physical things. Over time with some people, then they get dependent on it, wither it is because of circumstances in their lives, personality quirks, or simple escapism, because they need that good feeling. And to keep the rush and the good feeling going, then they have to keep taking it. This is the physical addiction you are speaking of.

Gambling appears to be no different. It sends pleasure signals to the brain, and to feed that fix, you need that excitement and the chance of winning. Neuro-imaging seems to show similar levels of brain activation. If you don't get that fix, then you can't function and you get the withdrawal symptoms like you do with other addictions. Furthermore, problem gamblers take out huge loans, conceal debts from their loved ones, sell their possessions to feed their habit, and beg, steal and lie to get more money to feed that addiction. Just like with something like a heroin addiction.

To tie that in with FOBTs (which I should emphasise, I don't have any experience of or strong opinions about), they are particularly designed to stimulate in this kind of way. An instant fix, no waiting, pleasure in the games, and significantly, lots of lowball payouts to encourage you and make people feel even better when they win, but ultimately, hugely costly.

ETA, if someone with an actual qualified knowledge can clarify any bollocks I might have talked in this post, or explain it in a better way, feel free!

You don't really need to have qualified knowledge, you've summed it up fine in a simple and easy to understand fashion.

Anyone that thinks compulsive gamblers don't rattle doesn't understand it, my brain only concentrated on gambling when I wasn't in action,the lack of physical substances in gambling enables compulsive gamblers to be master manipulators, the nice guy to those of no interest and an absolute b*****d that hammers their loved ones with mental abuse.

I was so good at manipulating I didn't realise I was doing it long after I stopped the punting.

[Big Gus]

Cheers ayrmad (and XBL) you've given me a broader understanding. And without wanting to be patronising you should be proud of taking control and dealing with your problems Ayrmad.

Is it just a bit "Well I'm alright Jack" for me to think about gambling like this when I am strictly a couple of quid on a saturday/midweek and maybe a "housewifes choice" on the National then? While I know gambling can be a real problem I've never known a "gambling addict" or even known of one. I probably do know some but they are just keeping it on the QT.

[Swampy]

 

As I said, I'm certainly not posting from some sort of lofty knowledge viewpoint - it's as grey an area to me as while I can relate it to my own addictions such as cigarettes and agree that there is a large degree of "in your head" in any scenario like that I still see it as being different to a physical addiction to a substance.

 

Happy to be educated on it as it is something I don't have huge knowledge on.

The responsible thing would be to educate yourself before making pronouncements on the physical nature of addiction. I'm sure I'm not the only lyrics one inhaling through my teeth at the bald-faced wrongness of much of your input. That doesn't mean I need to spend my morning writing a paper for you. It just makes you wrong, and a dick.

[Big Gus]

The responsible thing would be to educate yourself before making pronouncements on the physical nature of addiction. I'm sure I'm not the only lyrics one inhaling through my teeth at the bald-faced wrongness of much of your input. That doesn't mean I need to spend my morning writing a paper for you. It just makes you wrong, and a dick.

I have educated myself on the physical nature of addiction.

It's psychological addictions to things such as gambling I don't understand so well, I understand it better now.

[Swampy]

Fair enough. My main issue is that there's always an overlap between people who post things like "bootstraps! personal responsibility! my freedom is the only variable that matters here!" and people who won't take responsibility for their own education.

[ayrmad]

Cheers ayrmad (and XBL) you've given me a broader understanding. And without wanting to be patronising you should be proud of taking control and dealing with your problems Ayrmad.

Is it just a bit "Well I'm alright Jack" for me to think about gambling like this when I am strictly a couple of quid on a saturday/midweek and maybe a "housewifes choice" on the National then? While I know gambling can be a real problem I've never known a "gambling addict" or even known of one. I probably do know some but they are just keeping it on the QT.

Cheers,, being happy to sit in your own house when not working is a pleasure that most don't even realise, mentally scheming,fidgeting and agitating every waking minute to get out of the house away from those that matter the most is shite.

Not at all, I'm certainly not on here to tell people not to gamble, I'm only against the fobt's because they're so addictive in comparison to other forms.

I like a few drinks every week and wouldn't be pleased if someone said I wasn't allowed a glass of wine because someone else is addicted to it, I would however range against an alcoholic beverage that was far more addictive than all the other bevvy's.

It's a shame Blue doesn't post on here anymore, his approach to gambling was good for educating those looking to gamble.

[mid-table]

I don't really want to get involved in the finer points of this debate, as my head hurts a little from reading it, but a couple of things I wanted to pick up on;

• You probably won't get people begging for money to play FOBTs, I agree with that, but a lot of crime is committed to provide funds, or recover lost funds, that go into FOBTs. Although massively under-reported, every week you will see in the court reports about Joe Bloggs defrauding his employer for £x thousand to fund his gambling addiction. I can confidently say that in the majority of these cases this is FOBT play.
• The alcohol comparison is a bit of a misnomer, the difference with FOBTs is the percentage of people who use them who end up displaying compulsive traits towards it. Waaaay higher than any other form of gambling, and waaaay higher than the number of alcohol users who end up with a problem.
• To the people talking about the only effect being financial, that is simply not true. In fact the financial problems can seem the most daunting, but are normally actually the easiest to be dealt with once someone reaches rock bottom. It's the trust, behavioural, and relationship issue which are the hardest to resolve.
• As I said earlier in the thread, just because alcohol isn't banned is no reason for not doing anything about FOBTs. In my view the unhappiness they bring to society outweighs the benefits. So we need to alter that ratio. I believe the best way of doing this is to limit the maximum stake to £2, so that people can still enjoy the experience, without the misery that they currently bring to a not-insignificant percentage of the people that currently use them.

[WeAreElgin]

One thing I've never gotten my head around is the people willing to put ridiculous sums into the slots games. The house win margin on these games are considerably higher than anything else on the machines. Trying your hand with a tenner isn't perhaps so bad but putting hundreds in to chase an unlikely jackpot? Nah. No wonder there's so many to choose from.

[Big Gus]

I don't really want to get involved in the finer points of this debate, as my head hurts a little from reading it, but a couple of things I wanted to pick up on;

• You probably won't get people begging for money to play FOBTs, I agree with that, but a lot of crime is committed to provide funds, or recover lost funds, that go into FOBTs. Although massively under-reported, every week you will see in the court reports about Joe Bloggs defrauding his employer for £x thousand to fund his gambling addiction. I can confidently say that in the majority of these cases this is FOBT play.
• The alcohol comparison is a bit of a misnomer, the difference with FOBTs is the percentage of people who use them who end up displaying compulsive traits towards it. Waaaay higher than any other form of gambling, and waaaay higher than the number of alcohol users who end up with a problem.
• To the people talking about the only effect being financial, that is simply not true. In fact the financial problems can seem the most daunting, but are normally actually the easiest to be dealt with once someone reaches rock bottom. It's the trust, behavioural, and relationship issue which are the hardest to resolve.
• As I said earlier in the thread, just because alcohol isn't banned is no reason for not doing anything about FOBTs. In my view the unhappiness they bring to society outweighs the benefits. So we need to alter that ratio. I believe the best way of doing this is to limit the maximum stake to £2, so that people can still enjoy the experience, without the misery that they currently bring to a not-insignificant percentage of the people that currently use them.

Good post that, and again, a bit of an education. I've never played the machines, just always assumed they were like 'puggies' and it was just a game of luck and the machine would give a percentage payout but would still make a profit each and every day.

Again, apologies for posting abot something I don't really know much about but are the games on these machines like that? Games of chance or are they games of skill or a bit of both?

[Swampy]

Most of the games (e.g. roulette) are pure chance. Blackjack is a game in which optimal strategy will cause you to lose less (i.e. in every situation there is a correct move that minimizes your losses), but it's still ultimately a game of chance that has a house edge. The same is true of the various modes of blackjack available, and on some machines there is also video poker (5-card, not the weird hold 'em simulator, which is simply a game of chance with the odds displayed) and three-card poker, which also have an optimal strategy component.

tl;dr: there is no game on here in which skill level can tilt the outcome positively.

[Big Gus]

Skill was probably the wrong word, I'm not making the best job of this - granted. What I meant was "education" I suppose? Like when I put a coupon on I've done a wee bit of research even if it's just reading the (usually duff) tips in the gambling forum on here - checking the teams to make sure no major players are out/rested and the teams previous results at that ground if it's away etc. So I feel I'm not just making a random bet I feel I've got a chance because I'm betting using my knowledge?

My Bro is big on Blackjack in the casino in Dundee and he seems to think there's a "method" while the turn of a card still brings an element of chance and luck into it.

You've sort of answered my question anyway - wee bit of both. It's not just a "spin of a wheel" thing on all games.

[54_and_counting]

There's heehaw you can do to influence fobt machines, if you are unlucky the thing can give you f**k all, if your lucky you can win 5 ton with yer first quid

Hate the things, too easy to lose money as you get carried away,

[Swampy]

Skill was probably the wrong word, I'm not making the best job of this - granted. What I meant was "education" I suppose? Like when I put a coupon on I've done a wee bit of research even if it's just reading the (usually duff) tips in the gambling forum on here - checking the teams to make sure no major players are out/rested and the teams previous results at that ground if it's away etc. So I feel I'm not just making a random bet I feel I've got a chance because I'm betting using my knowledge?

My Bro is big on Blackjack in the casino in Dundee and he seems to think there's a "method" while the turn of a card still brings an element of chance and luck into it.

You've sort of answered my question anyway - wee bit of both. It's not just a "spin of a wheel" thing on all games.

Yes, there is a method in Blackjack to cut the house edge, and that will give better results than (for example) sticking on every hand without discrimination. But it wouldn't be a casino game if there wasn't a house edge.*

*in blackjack as played with actual decks of cards you can of course count cards and turn the edge in your favor - if you're skilled enough to do so (very very few people are) and can get away with it - but this is an RNG game that starts with a fresh deck each time so that doesn't come into it.

[Big Gus]

Can anyone tell me the percentage payouts? I know most "pub puggies" operate at about 70odd percent of stakes paid out but it's a bit more complex than that - depends on amount of cash in the machine - if it's just "paid out".

I've never even gone over to online betting despite the offers of "free bets" for sign ups and better odds. I really like the physicality of writing my lines, the handing over the money and (hopefully) collecting winnings plus in my local bookies I get on great with all the staff so it's all part of enjoyment of the "experience" for me. They speak to me about my bets, tell me what they are putting on. It's a nice wee social experience that I enjoy and numbers on my smartphone or hammering money into a machine just wouldn't seem as enjoyable for me even though my mates think I'm nuts "it's a waste of petrol to drive there and the odds are better online" (there's about 5 ladbrokes all within a mile or two of me in different housing schemes).

The FOBT Machines are never that busy and I can go to one of 5 different ladbrokes depending on which way I'm driving home etc.

[mid-table]

Can anyone tell me the percentage payouts? I know most "pub puggies" operate at about 70odd percent of stakes paid out but it's a bit more complex than that - depends on amount of cash in the machine - if it's just "paid out".

The slots on FOBTs pay out approximately 90-92%, the roulette should pay out the standard 97.3%. The blackjack payout depends on who is playing it.

The payout of money that goes into the machine is reckoned to be around 50%. For example, if I start with £100 and win exactly my 97.3% payout on each spin, then after 25 spins I would be left with £50.45. I would have turned over £1,835.36 in those 25 spins (£100, then £97.30, then £94.67, and so on).

A really important thing to point out here relates to what you mentioned above.

A fruit machine uses a pseudorandom number generator, and the 70% payout is managed by the computer in the machine, so if someone has just won the jackpot you would do better to avoid it for a while as it needs to balance out to make it's 70% payout.

FOBTs use true random number generators, so if someone wins £500 on a roulette spin, the chance of winning £500 on the next roulette spin is exactly the same as before. The margin is made in the mathematical over-round of the game, not a computer deciding when to pay out and when not to.