Bitcoin/cryptocurrency thread

[Satoshi]

1 hour ago, hk blues said:

You're too hung up on the semantics of gambling v taking a gamble.

 

Explain it for me then.

Investing and gambling are completely different things.

You take a gamble with virtually every activity you do.

Speculative investing has a higher risk than bond investing, neither is gambling, both is taking a gamble in your view.

1 hour ago, 54_and_counting said:

Thats bollocks and you know it, and tbh i dont know why you wont admit its a gamble, 

Just because investing is a more long term game doesn't mean it still isnt a game in your gambling sense

You pick a stock/crypto or whatever and gamble that after you purchase it, its value goes up instead of down

I don't pick stocks, I invest in ETFs.

You think investing and gambling are the same thing. They are not. That is why they are regulated by completely different bodies.

Virtually every person with excess money, and certainly all high net worth individuals, invest in the stock market (and other assets). They are not all gamblers.

Not everyone who has a pension is a gambler.

Gambling sells itself as entertainment and encourages (or pretends to encourage) people to not gamble too much. Neither of these things apply to investing.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it. So if you still think investing and gambling are the same thing please explain exactly how they are the same, and why there are regulated by different bodies.

If your position is that investing carries risk then obviously this is true, but it also applies to every activity or purchase you make. Buying a tv isn't considered gambling, and neither should investing in an ETF.

Going to a casino and playing roulette, or betting on horses in a bookies is gambling. Buying US government bonds has risk, but is not gambling.

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Satoshi

[Left Back]

2 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Explain it for me then.

Investing and gambling are completely different things.

You take a gamble with virtually every activity you do.

Speculative investing has a higher risk than bond investing, neither is gambling, both is taking a gamble in your view.

I don't pick stocks, I invest in ETFs.

You think investing and gambling are the same thing. They are not. That is why they are regulated by completely different bodies.

Virtually every person with excess money, and certainly all high net worth individuals, invest in the stock market (and other assets). They are not all gamblers.

Not everyone who has a pension is a gambler.

Gambling sells itself as entertainment and encourages (or pretends to encourage) people to not gamble too much. Neither of these things apply to investing.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it. So if you still think investing and gambling are the same thing please explain exactly how they are the same, and why there are regulated by different bodies.

If your position is that investing carries risk then obviously this is true, but it also applies to every activity or purchase you make. Buying a tv isn't considered gambling, and neither should investing in an ETF.

Going to a casino and playing roulette, or betting on horses in a bookies is gambling. Buying US government bonds has risk, but is not gambling.

 

 

 

When you buy a TV you aren’t looking to sell it at a profit further down the line.  It isn’t an investment.

[Satoshi]

13 minutes ago, Left Back said:

When you buy a TV you aren’t looking to sell it at a profit further down the line.  It isn’t an investment.

It's a risk that it might not work. Almost all activities in life carry some risk.

But you're right, it's not an asset I'm looking to sell further down the line (I'm actually not looking to sell my ETFs either but others will be). Buying a house, for living or buy to let, is not gambling.

In gambling you are not buying an asset to sell further down the line. Hence why investing and gambling are distinct, clearly different activities.

[hk blues]

2 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Explain it for me then.

Investing and gambling are completely different things.

You take a gamble with virtually every activity you do.

Speculative investing has a higher risk than bond investing, neither is gambling, both is taking a gamble in your view.

Investing and gambling are 2 different things.  Apples and oranges are also 2 different things.  However, they are both fruits so on a certain level they are the same thing.

That's pretty much in a nutshell what I, and others, are saying - at a certain level both gambling and investing are the same. 

Sure, you may argue that crossing the road is a gamble, but to try to equate  that with what we are discussing is hardly reasonable. 

[Left Back]

3 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

It's a risk that it might not work. Almost all activities in life carry some risk.

But you're right, it's not an asset I'm looking to sell further down the line (I'm actually not looking to sell my ETFs either but others will be). Buying a house, for living or buy to let, is not gambling.

In gambling you are not buying an asset to sell further down the line. Hence why investing and gambling are distinct, clearly different activities.

No it isn’t.  If you plug it in and it doesn’t work you send it back and they send you a new one.  You also get a guarantee that it will work for a period of time.

What a bizarre argument

[Satoshi]

13 minutes ago, hk blues said:

Investing and gambling are 2 different things.  Apples and oranges are also 2 different things.  However, they are both fruits so on a certain level they are the same thing.

That's pretty much in a nutshell what I, and others, are saying - at a certain level both gambling and investing are the same. 

Sure, you may argue that crossing the road is a gamble, but to try to equate  that with what we are discussing is hardly reasonable. 

Well it's good that, in a nutshell, you agree that investing and gambling are clearly different activities. The point I have been making all along.

In crossing the road you gamble with your life. In investing you risk your money.

Investing in ETFs has been proven as the most effective way to protect the value of your money (in studies spanning decades). It is pretty much the safest thing you can do with your money. It's the polar opposite of gambling.

8 minutes ago, Left Back said:

No it isn’t.  If you plug it in and it doesn’t work you send it back and they send you a new one.  You also get a guarantee that it will work for a period of time.

What a bizarre argument

Hardly, I've only bought used TVs and this absolutely does not apply.

But the illustrative point was that pretty much every activity involves some risk, as does every purchase. Buying a new house isn't gambling.  Buying a new car isn't gambling. They involve some risk but they're not gambling.

I enjoy sky diving, this is clearly a risky activity but I have never heard anyone describing it as gambling. Because it isn't.

Investing in ETFs cannot be described as gambling, it has some risk but so does pretty much anything.

[Left Back]

4 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Well it's good that, in a nutshell, you agree that investing and gambling are clearly different activities. The point I have been making all along.

In crossing the road you gamble with your life. In investing you risk your money.

Investing in ETFs has been proven as the most effective way to protect the value of your money (in studies spanning decades). It is pretty much the safest thing you can do with your money. It's the polar opposite of gambling.

Hardly, I've only bought used TVs and this absolutely does not apply.

But the illustrative point was that pretty much every activity involves some risk, as does every purchase. Buying a new house isn't gambling.  Buying a new car isn't gambling. They involve some risk but they're not gambling.

I enjoy sky diving, this is clearly a risky activity but I have never heard anyone describing it as gambling. Because it isn't.

Investing in ETFs cannot be described as gambling, it has some risk but so does pretty much anything.

If you didn’t gamble all your money away on crypto you might be able to afford a new TV.

[iron mike python]

26 minutes ago, Left Back said:

If you didn’t gamble all your money away on crypto you might be able to afford a new TV.

What have you done with your money for the past 4 years? 

I need some economic tips.... I've been in crypto all that time like a moron.

[Satoshi]

23 minutes ago, Left Back said:

If you didn’t gamble all your money away on crypto you might be able to afford a new TV.

I haven't gambled all my money away, 85-90% of my portfolios are in ETFs, which have also dramatically reduced in value but not to the extent it has affected my spending.

Buying a used TV is for sustainability reasons, not financial reasons. But the consumer protection you outlined in your original post doesn't apply to most of the world, in many places it will be goodwill only if they refund your money or offer you an exchange. Most of the time you would be told to f**k off.

The point was only illustrative, every activity carries some risk, and every purchases carries some financial risk. I stupidly bought a game on Steam recently and was too doped up on painkillers to see it was £20 less on cd keys. Definite mistake.

If I meet someone who has just inherited a large sum of money - after offering condolences I would advise them to invest most of it in low cost tracker ETFs. This has been repeatedly proven to be the most effective way to safeguard the value of their money.

If someone else came up and told them - take it to the roulette table, it's pretty much the same as investing in low cost tracker ETFs. What would most peoples response to that be?

[Satoshi]

10 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

This surely wins the award for the most strawmen arguments in a single post.

Surely.

I need to flesh it out, but really it could have started and ended that you are factually wrong that gambling and investing are the same thing.

Right call to not bother addressing it though, you rightly recognised you didn't have a chance.

7 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Actually, the point you have been making all along is that gambling in crypto is equivalent to investing in stocks and shares.

Not at all, crypto is clearly a more speculative / high risk investment that should be a relatively small proportion of your overall portfolio. I've made that point multiple times, I can hardly account for you failing to understand it.

Crypto is speculative investing. Speculative investing is not gambling. If you think it is, taking it up with the gambling commission. They will tell you to stop yelling at the clouds.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Satoshi

[Satoshi]

16 hours ago, oaksoft said:

IMO you are not investing - you are gambling. We're going to have to agree to disagree on that score.

I don't recommend anything. I prefer to leave others alone to make their own decisions about money.

That last sentence of yours is gambler's justification.

 

14 hours ago, oaksoft said:

I honestly have no idea why he doesn't realise it's gambling TBH.

I remember some justification along the lines of Bitcoin being the same as putting money into other hard currencies like Sterling but the problem is that that is gambling as well.

At least with stocks and shares you can research the stability of the company. You can't do that with currency. It's a hard gamble. End of story.

 

25 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Nobody said speculative investing was the same as gambling.

Literally nobody.

Except you.

It's just another strawman argument.

And you're only saying it because you're kidding yourself on with that first wholly incorrect sentence.

George Orwell used to call this sort of thing "doublespeak".

Always fascinating to see it in real life.

You repeatedly said that bitcoin was gambling (or crypto Investment generally). I have helpfully quoted your exact posts on the subject.

So you didn't say speculative investment was gambling, but do think investing in crypto is. This is the double speak you are accusing me of.

So, direct questions to resolve it:

1) is investing in crypto currency, in your view, gambling or speculative investing?

2) the same question as above, but for ETF

Looking forward to direct answers and not clunky, easily foiled double speak.

[iron mike python]

48 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Well I'm guessing he didn't spunk it on crypto and lose 90% of it overnight.

So there's that...

Yes you will be correct that he didn't put his money into crypto because he has already said this.

I'm waiting to see if he is also up 3700% over the same period.

[falkirktheinvincible]

Shirley you'd only be 3700% up if you'd cashed the lot out & now had no stake in crypto?

[iron mike python]

18 minutes ago, badgerthewitness said:

Shirley you'd only be 3700% up if you'd cashed the lot out & now had no stake in crypto?

That isn't how I was calculating it... and don't call me Shirley.

[Satoshi]

6 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

That's not what double speak is but never mind - you either know the book or you don't. 

This is a thread about crypto. I have already answered your question on what putting money into crypto represents IMO and you've quoted me multiple times giving my answer.

I've read the book (and seen the inferior movie).

You've not answered it and completely chickened out because you were check mated.

Not surprising.

Imagine being your age and still so ignorant about the difference between investing and gambling, really not a good look. With age does not necessarily come wisdom.

[Left Back]

1 hour ago, iron mike python said:

Yes you will be correct that he didn't put his money into crypto because he has already said this.

I'm waiting to see if he is also up 3700% over the same period.

Don’t recall saying anything of the sort.

[Satoshi]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

I appear to have unwittingly wandered into a conversation with a schoolchild.

Again.

Silly me. 

BTW, you might want to read his book again. Or look up what "doublespeak" means.

Check mated and won't answer the question.

God knows why you keep posting at all.

Is crypto gambling or speculative investing?

No way you don't look like an arse from here I'm afraid. 

[welshbairn]

12 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Is crypto gambling or speculative investing?

[vikingTON]

Remember folks:

Working-class people putting a fraction of their wages on a horse/football team = the devil's vice of 'gambling'.

Upper-class people and cryptobros shovelling their money into buying a jpeg of a monkey = 'investment opportunity'. 

It's just the same old shite with modern labels added.

Edited July 23, 2022 by vikingTON

[Detournement]

Crypto is clearly worse than gambling because with gambling you either have fixed odds or form to study and everyone has access to the same information whereas with Crypto it's rigged in favour of the big players. 

There is also no huge propaganda campaign about gambling. No one ever posted on the internet saying you could change your life with a 5 team accumulator. Huge numbers of people were conned into thinking a Ponzi would give them life long financial independence.