strichener Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Can you explain to me why? Other than Natty soundbites about the Tories shutting down Holyrood after a no vote, every political opinion I've seen in recent memory is in favour of devolving powers. The choice is full independence or more devolution. I am not really sure what you are asking me to explain. If you are seriously suggesting that BT are promoting "Vote No, get more powers through Devo" then you are more deluded than I thought. Can you tell me what extra powers we will get, when we will get them and who will determine the limitation of such powers? I demand clarity on what I am voting for if I vote No. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Although they won't admit it - BT don't have to do that at all. They just have to put enough people off independence. Mr Bairn's point is also valid about campaigning for a No vote automatically means their campaign will be less positive - although I think its obvious the Project Fear campaign have went as far as they can possibly go down the negative route. It becomes limiting in itself and only stores up trouble in the future. A couple of years of negative reinforcement will only lead to sullen conformance from some people, aplain anger from others. Ultimately it just leaves folk feeling even more peripheral. How hard is it though, for the sixth largest economy in the world, Mr Bairn's military superpower, to ariticulate some kind of collective vision and ambition, beyond securing the status of the City of London at all costs - "This is as good as it gets" is hardly an aspirational banner.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Surely, by that logic, all Yes Scotland have to do is put enough people off the idea of the United Kingdom? Your arguement doesn't stand up. One vote - two choices, therefore it is encumbent on BOTH sides to demonstrate why people should vote for them. To suggest BetterTogether shouldn't do this is ludicrous. It's just that that has them dangling on a precipice. That's a big part of the Yes campaign - let's not pretend its all positive. Its certainly one of the main reasons for me voting Yes. The other key element is that folk know what its like to be in the UK - its all anyone has ever known. In that sense they don't need to do as much persuading. The Yes campaign have to do enough to convince people that there is no risk in independence. That's not easy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 You might think that, right up until you see the Labour devolution proposals...... Dismissing a no vote based on Labour's proposals is as silly as dismissing yes on the SNPs. Labour are merely on of the BT parties. Surely, by that logic, all Yes Scotland have to do is put enough people off the idea of the United Kingdom? Your arguement doesn't stand up. One vote - two choices, therefore it is encumbent on BOTH sides to demonstrate why people should vote for them. To suggest BetterTogether shouldn't do this is ludicrous. It's just that that has them dangling on a precipice. The burden of proof is on the people that want change. I am not really sure what you are asking me to explain. If you are seriously suggesting that BT are promoting "Vote No, get more powers through Devo" then you are more deluded than I thought. Can you tell me what extra powers we will get, when we will get them and who will determine the limitation of such powers? I demand clarity on what I am voting for if I vote No. There are three main parties in the no campaign, all favour different levels of devolution. Personally I would like to see all parts of the UK receiving equal levels of autonomy away from the central government. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 That's a big part of the Yes campaign - let's not pretend its all positive. Its certainly one of the main reasons for me voting Yes. The other key element is that folk know what its like to be in the UK - its all anyone has ever known. In that sense they don't need to do as much persuading. The Yes campaign have to do enough to convince people that there is no risk in independence. That's not easy. Absolutely, and rightly so. The gigantic difference being that Yes Scotland's overall message is one of hope and optimism. BetterTogether's entire message is one of fear. They have nothing else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) Dismissing a no vote based on Labour's proposals is as silly as dismissing yes on the SNPs. Labour are merely on of the BT parties. The burden of proof is on the people that want change. There are three main parties in the no campaign, all favour different levels of devolution. Personally I would like to see all parts of the UK receiving equal levels of autonomy away from the central government. OH MY GOD. I thought that if I voted No I was voting for the certainty of the status quo. How am I to deal with all this un-certainty, I know - VOTE YES. Edited April 14, 2014 by strichener 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 It's human nature to be negative about change - that's why any sort of discussion about change comes down to the positives for the change and the negatives against. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Dismissing a no vote based on Labour's proposals is as silly as dismissing yes on the SNPs. Labour are merely on of the BT parties. The burden of proof is on the people that want change. There are three main parties in the no campaign, all favour different levels of devolution. Personally I would like to see all parts of the UK receiving equal levels of autonomy away from the central government. Labour's proposals are the ones that matter. The LDs are never going to be in a position to enact federalism and the Tory proposals are likely to be even more miserable than Labour's - that's the high water mark. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Labour's proposals are the ones that matter. The LDs are never going to be in a position to enact federalism and the Tory proposals are likely to be even more miserable than Labour's - that's the high water mark. The SNP's proposals are the ones that matter. The Greens are never going to be in a position to enact environmentalism and the Socialist proposals are likely to be even more miserable than the SNPs - that's the high water mark. Two can play at this game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Sorry but I don't agree with that at all. It totally depends on the change. Google "Negativity Bias Theory" - there is a plethora of research that would indicate otherwise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Google "Negativity Bias Theory" - there is a plethora of research that would indicate otherwise. You can do all the research you want, change is necessarily negative. Finishing work to go on holiday to the Caribbean. Winning the lottery. Becoming independent. Getting a new car. They're all changes aren't they? Don't think I'd feel too negative about any of them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Oh wow. Comparing independence to a Caribbean holiday. That has to be a new low for the clown collective. Anyway, your big problem is that those are all experienced changes. Here's the better analogy; suppose your boss approaches you and tells you there's a new department opening and he wants you to move over to it. Of course you will naturally favour the status quo unless he convinces you of the benefits of moving. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Jack D Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Oh wow. Comparing independence to a Caribbean holiday. That has to be a new low for the clown collective. Anyway, your big problem is that those are all experienced changes. Here's the better analogy; suppose your boss approaches you and tells you there's a new department opening and he wants you to move over to it. Of course you will naturally favour the status quo unless he convinces you of the benefits of moving. Nonsense, I got moved into new job last year and I was delighted. It depends on your outlook on life as well as what you are changing. BT being negative pretty much translates as "look we know things are shite, but they could be worse" whereas the Yes campaign are saying "look things are shite but they could be so much better!" I'm a glass half full kinda guy..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Well seeing that I've been employed by the same company since I was 17 and have moved departments within on a couple of occasion I would venture to say that oaksoft is abandoning truthfulness in terms of a sound bite. Pretty much comes from the same bullshitter that claimed HB doesn't have a vote in the referendum 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Oh wow. Comparing independence to a Caribbean holiday. That has to be a new low for the clown collective. Anyway, your big problem is that those are all experienced changes. Here's the better analogy; suppose your boss approaches you and tells you there's a new department opening and he wants you to move over to it. Of course you will naturally favour the status quo unless he convinces you of the benefits of moving. If my current department was a crock of shit and treating me and my colleagues like idiots while the bosses get rich, I'd jump at it. And please stop using clown collective. It makes you look pathetic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bojangles Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Oh wow. Comparing independence to a Caribbean holiday. That has to be a new low for the clown collective. Anyway, your big problem is that those are all experienced changes. Here's the better analogy; suppose your boss approaches you and tells you there's a new department opening and he wants you to move over to it. Of course you will naturally favour the status quo unless he convinces you of the benefits of moving. Where are we going? Do we keep our neighbours in this new land? Nobody told me about this! It's more like working in a successful arm of a dying business. When the administrators come the branch you're working in is bought whole as a new enterprise by the workers. Not quite right, but a hell of a lot closer than what you came up with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Well seeing that I've been employed by the same company since I was 17 and have moved departments within on a couple of occasion. :lol: Oh, my sides!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'm pretty sure the majority of Scots don't consider the English to be a crock of shit though 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'm pretty sure the majority of Scots don't consider the English to be a crock of shit though Eh, wit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 :lol: Oh, my sides!! Care to elaborate? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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