Blaven Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Really not sure what you want to hear tbh. If you're so skeptical get a copy of the white paper. It's free y'know. If you read all 600 pages (or the pages relating to the issues that most concern you) and decide once and for all you're not convinced then that's absolutely fair enough. The orange dick is just another Libby. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I'm sorry but for me if I'm gonna be jumping out of the frying pan until I want to make pretty damn sure it's not straight into the fire. I believe that the SNP (who I think would most likely be the winner of the first election) should be setting out their stall. They're the only party that is 'up' for independence, in an ideal world I'd like all the parties to have a 'what if' scenario. Sticking with the SNP, that would be admitting to policies that some will like and some won't but for me it would be honest. They seem to be saying/not saying anything that will get them over the finishing line. I get that the SNP will do anything to gain independence, its kind of their thing but as I've said before I want a bit more flesh on the bones. My cynical side is dubious of the fact that they are willing to let everyone see their own view of what they would get with independence, you can see it on this forum, lots of "after independence we'll do this or that", none of which has been confirmed. I'm not exactly enamoured with the great minds in Holyrood anyway so there are a few reasons why I'm not keen. Just to be clear, just because I don't rate most of the current MSP's doesn't mean that I think we'd be incapable of running a country, I just don't think they would be the ones I'd choose. While its not likely that we'll get another vote for a good long while I'm willing to wait for more favourable circumstances. Now for the dissection....... Can't you even entertain the thought that independence would bring about a new political landscape? Personally speaking, I would LOVE to vote for a Scottish Labour that's light years from the current set up. Independence is not about the SNP. No matter how much you want it to be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 No matter how you chop it a No vote is a carte blance nod to Westminster to continue with their vicious austerity, pointless Trident system, extortionate HS1 and cross London rail plans and an aircraft carrier with no aircraft. You're also endorsing the use of foodbanks, saying that it's OK that we have the biggest rich/ poor divide in Europe, agreeing with record numbers of children in poverty and saying you loooove Johann Lamont. It really isn't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 It really isn't. I'm fine with you being in denial about it. But it is. You're saying No to independence. You're saying Yes to Westminster. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I'm fine with you being in denial about it. But it is. You're saying No to independence. You're saying Yes to Westminster. Voting no is voting no to independence, nothing else. It's simply saying one thinks independence is worse than the current set up, that's offering no comment on how good or bad the current set up is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Voting no is voting no to independence, nothing else. It's simply saying one thinks independence is worse than the current set up, that's offering no comment on how good or bad the current set up is. By rejecting independence you are telling Westminster that the current set up is favourable to you. That's a Yes to them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepundit Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Laughed at by you. And you don't count. I count as one No voter. They all add up!. (to about 60%+) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I'm sorry but for me if I'm gonna be jumping out of the frying pan I want to make pretty damn sure it's not straight into the fire. I believe that the SNP (who I think would most likely be the winner of the first election) should be setting out their stall. They're the only party that is 'up' for independence, in an ideal world I'd like all the parties to have a 'what if' scenario. Sticking with the SNP, that would be admitting to policies that some will like and some won't but for me it would be honest. They seem to be saying/not saying anything that will get them over the finishing line. I get that the SNP will do anything to gain independence, its kind of their thing but as I've said before I want a bit more flesh on the bones. My cynical side is dubious of the fact that they are willing to let everyone see their own view of what they would get with independence, you can see it on this forum, lots of "after independence we'll do this or that", none of which has been confirmed. I'm not exactly enamoured with the great minds in Holyrood anyway so there are a few reasons why I'm not keen. Just to be clear, just because I don't rate most of the current MSP's doesn't mean that I think we'd be incapable of running a country, I just don't think they would be the ones I'd choose. While its not likely that we'll get another vote for a good long while I'm willing to wait for more favourable circumstances. Now for the dissection....... Fair play for engaging In the debate in a constructive manner. I think we share a lot of political views. All I know is that I'm absolutely certain I want out of this fucking fry pan. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomp my root Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Can't you even entertain the thought that independence would bring about a new political landscape? Personally speaking, I would LOVE to vote for a Scottish Labour that's light years from the current set up. Independence is not about the SNP. No matter how much you want it to be. I've given you my reasons, why can't you accept them, you don't have to agree with them. I obviously don't agree with yours but I can accept that its your choice. I could have said "just cos" but I've taken the time to explain my logic, I know its not just about the SNP, I did say I'd quite like a 'what if' scenario for other parties to post their post indy plans but it would be a bit of an own goal for them to say NAW, but X, Y and Z if it happens so I wouldn't really expect them to. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I've given you my reasons, why can't you accept them, you don't have to agree with them. I obviously don't agree with yours but I can accept that its your choice. I could have said "just cos" but I've taken the time to explain my logic, I know its not just about the SNP, I did say I'd quite like a 'what if' scenario for other parties to post their post indy plans but it would be a bit of an own goal for them to say NAW, but X, Y and Z if it happens so I wouldn't really expect them to. Fair enough, I respect your view. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 By rejecting independence you are telling Westminster that the current set up is favourable to you. That's a Yes to them. No I'm not, I'm saying I do not want the different set up being offered to me. That's a no to the other option, not a comment in any way on the current system. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonapersona Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I've given you my reasons, why can't you accept them, you don't have to agree with them. I obviously don't agree with yours but I can accept that its your choice. I could have said "just cos" but I've taken the time to explain my logic, I know its not just about the SNP, I did say I'd quite like a 'what if' scenario for other parties to post their post indy plans but it would be a bit of an own goal for them to say NAW, but X, Y and Z if it happens so I wouldn't really expect them to. I'd also like to hear what the other parties have in mind for an independent Scotland. Fat chance of their Westminster bosses allowing that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Give example's sources of information on Scottish independence. (You will be laughed at if you start listing Nationalist blogs) Especially if they produce actual facts, eh? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 No I'm not, I'm saying I do not want the different set up being offered to me. That's a no to the other option, not a comment in any way on the current system. And by saying you don't want the different set up you are actively saying you seek continual Westminster ruling. That it's your preference. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomp my root Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Fair play for engaging In the debate in a constructive manner. I think we share a lot of political views. All I know is that I'm absolutely certain I want out of this fucking fry pan. Fair enough, I can respect that, I was quite pro independence in the early 90's after years of Tory rule, way worse (in my opinion) than what we've had but in my dotage (well 40's) I'm a bit more cautious. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I'd also like to hear what the other parties have in mind for an independent Scotland. Fat chance of their Westminster bosses allowing that. I don't really think it would be in their interests to. Any scenario they would give they would have to create a positive image of post-independent Scotland. The last thing they want to do, even hypothetically, is put that idea in people's minds. If we become independent that would change, but until then they will avoid doing anything like that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I'd also like to hear what the other parties have in mind for an independent Scotland. Fat chance of their Westminster bosses allowing that. It would be incredibly refreshing. Would Lamont's position be untenable? Wee Tory woman would flourish I reckon, I've been quite impressed with her since the became leader. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 And by saying you don't want the different set up you are actively saying you seek continual Westminster ruling. That it's your preference. I'm saying continued Westminster ruling is preferable to independence. Nothing less, nothing more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonapersona Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I don't really think it would be in their interests to. Any scenario they would give they would have to create a positive image of post-independent Scotland. The last thing they want to do, even hypothetically, is put that idea in people's minds. If we become independent that would change, but until then they will avoid doing anything like that. I totally agree, but that's my point. When three of the main parties in Holyrood are taking their direction from Westminster then something just doesn't add up. I'd respect the BT camp a lot more if they ran their own show, but they don't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I don't really think it would be in their interests to. Any scenario they would give they would have to create a positive image of post-independent Scotland. The last thing they want to do, even hypothetically, is put that idea in people's minds. If we become independent that would change, but until then they will avoid doing anything like that. Obviously. But would they give up politics? or would they actually end up making a positive contribution to an independent Scotland? Surely Lamont surely had other ambitions growing up - more than just siding with the establishment and defeating the SNP in a referendum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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