jock001 Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Keep on digging jock, I mean it's not as if anyone already thinks you've made a monumental c**t of yourself here. One day you'll make a post that contributes something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garybs Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 What a complete fuckin roaster this jock guy is, words fail me 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I just checked and I did indeed ask you, the guy who claimed to be an aeronautical engineer to confirm whether the rotors would need to be going to send an aircraft end over end rather than state it couldn't happen. You avoided the question. Right - what the actual f'ck !! You've mentioned this before and it seems you think I'm trying to avoid some sort of massive issue - I quoted your 'question' and answered it way back at the beginning .. Witnesses have stated that the main rotor head had stopped spinning so I'd suggest that purely the action of the aircraft falling from the sky was enough to cause it to tumble (FWIW - a helicopter's main rotor acts like a huge gyroscope - it makes the aircraft more stable) Then and up until now I thought that that was enough, I wasn't trying to explain away or disprove your point I was trying to make sense of what we'd been told (rotors not turning, and aircraft tumbling) - I wasn't trying to avoid your statement I was trying to speculate as to what had happened to make an aircraft tumble without the blades spinning - the very basic statement above ties in with the in-depth statement I later linked to from the site that's been mentioned a few times now - I also stated that the rotors turning would make it harder to tumble, which of course it would ! Just in case you think I'm still trying to avoid the question I'll type the next bit slowly - The rotors would not need to be turning to send it over end !! I'm still not really sure what your point is - you suggested you'd need rotors turning to flip a helicopter as you'd need to rotors to change the pitch, I stated it was less likely to flip under those circumstances given the gyroscopic effect of the rotors, here is the statement I later linked to that should clear this up ... I hope ! "If the rotor was stopped, then there's no gyroscopic stabilization, and it would be possible for the aircraft to have been "tumbling" as witnesses suggested. While eyewitnesses are not necessarily able to assess or report the true motion in 3D, the helicopter "tumbling" is not ruled out as it would be by the presence of angular momentum with the rotors turning. Turning at 20 radians/s the 200kg 10-m-diameter rotor has an angular momentum of order 100,000 kg m^2 s^-1, requiring a huge torque of order a million Newton-metres to make it turn end-over-end at a radian per second. With the rotor stopped, the whole helicopter has a moment of inertia of only a few 1000 kg m^2, turning quickly in any axis when a torque of only ~10,000 Newton-meters was applied." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 This suggests the lack of mayday wasn't due to time constraints. More likely there was another reason the pilot was unable or unwilling to make the radio call. He didn't make a mayday because he'd f'cked up !!?? Is that what you are really suggesting ? What would have happened if he'd survived the crash - claim that a big boy did it and ran away ?? If it was a mistake then the deed was already done, not making a mayday call wasn't going to change anything ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 What good would a mayday call have done anyway, he was plummeting to the ground in a packed city centre, the last thing on the pilots mind would have been the mayday call 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 He didn't make a mayday because he'd f'cked up !!?? Is that what you are really suggesting ? What would have happened if he'd survived the crash - claim that a big boy did it and ran away ?? If it was a mistake then the deed was already done, not making a mayday call wasn't going to change anything ! Jock seems like a rather bitter troll. And a fucking moron. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Such as? He was busy crashing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
port-ton Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Jock? More like cock!! 11!!! 1 haha. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugster Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Bond have grounded all of their helicopters which are the same model involved in this incident this afternoon. Affects 22 police and air ambulance choppers in the UK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBud Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Bond have grounded all of their helicopters which are the same model involved in this incident this afternoon. Affects 22 police and air ambulance choppers in the UK. Why would they do that when it's quite clearly pilot error? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Bond have grounded all of their helicopters which are the same model involved in this incident this afternoon. Affects 22 police and air ambulance choppers in the UK. Hopefully it's not pilot error. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 What good would a mayday call have done anyway Doh !! Surely you know by now that the mayday call gives an indication of whether it's pilot error or not !? he was plummeting to the ground in a packed city centre, the last thing on the pilots mind would have been the mayday call Quite. If he were out at sea or in the middle of nowhere then it would have alerted the authorities that an aircraft had gone down somewhere - even better if he'd managed to spurt out his call sign and location as well ! As it is, and as you say, he was heading for a city center - the authorities would, and did, know exactly where he was almost immediately ! IMO the lack of a mayday call is more of an indication of just how frantic and desperate the situation was. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Doh !! Surely you know by now that the mayday call gives an indication of whether it's pilot error or not !? Quite. If he were out at sea or in the middle of nowhere then it would have alerted the authorities that an aircraft had gone down somewhere - even better if he'd managed to spurt out his call sign and location as well ! As it is, and as you say, he was heading for a city center - the authorities would, and did, know exactly where he was almost immediately ! IMO the lack of a mayday call is more of an indication of just how frantic and desperate the situation was. Too right, I would think trying to avoid carnage comes higher up a human beings list than putting out a mayday when you've a few seconds to think, even more salient that he would have known he was more than likely going to die and would most probably be trying to avoid the public getting hurt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 10th victim has now died from injuries sustained in the crash. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock001 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Right - what the actual f'ck !! You've mentioned this before and it seems you think I'm trying to avoid some sort of massive issue - I quoted your 'question' and answered it way back at the beginning .. Then and up until now I thought that that was enough, I wasn't trying to explain away or disprove your point I was trying to make sense of what we'd been told (rotors not turning, and aircraft tumbling) - I wasn't trying to avoid your statement I was trying to speculate as to what had happened to make an aircraft tumble without the blades spinning - the very basic statement above ties in with the in-depth statement I later linked to from the site that's been mentioned a few times now - I also stated that the rotors turning would make it harder to tumble, which of course it would ! Just in case you think I'm still trying to avoid the question I'll type the next bit slowly - The rotors would not need to be turning to send it over end !! I'm still not really sure what your point is - you suggested you'd need rotors turning to flip a helicopter as you'd need to rotors to change the pitch, I stated it was less likely to flip under those circumstances given the gyroscopic effect of the rotors, here is the statement I later linked to that should clear this up ... I hope ! "If the rotor was stopped, then there's no gyroscopic stabilization, and it would be possible for the aircraft to have been "tumbling" as witnesses suggested. While eyewitnesses are not necessarily able to assess or report the true motion in 3D, the helicopter "tumbling" is not ruled out as it would be by the presence of angular momentum with the rotors turning. Turning at 20 radians/s the 200kg 10-m-diameter rotor has an angular momentum of order 100,000 kg m^2 s^-1, requiring a huge torque of order a million Newton-metres to make it turn end-over-end at a radian per second. With the rotor stopped, the whole helicopter has a moment of inertia of only a few 1000 kg m^2, turning quickly in any axis when a torque of only ~10,000 Newton-meters was applied." For someone with aerodynamic engineering qualifications, you seem to be missing my point. For an helicopter to go nose over tail it needs a generate lot of angular momentum. Your fixation on the fact a spinning rotor acts as a gyroscope does not change this. Your aerodynamic engineer explanation is 'it could have happened as it fell from the sky' but you backed away from that claim when I pointed out high school physics said that wouldn't happen. I did give a possible explanation that fit all your criteria: Change in pitch caused by the control surfaces (the thing they are designed for) and the rotors stop after that. That would result in an aircraft going end over end with the rotors not turning. For some reason you seem unable to accept this and are instead obsessed by repeatedly cutting and pasting irrelevancies about the gyroscopic effects of rotors but you never once did explain how your version could possibly work or how the gyro effect of rotors counters my explanation in any way. So for someone who claims he wasn't avoiding the question, just tell me post where you explained ANYTHING which could cause an aircraft to go end over end from low altitude. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Tell me how the fact that there was no mayday call is sufficient for you to claim the crash must have been caused by the pilot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock001 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Jock seems like a rather bitter troll. And a fucking moron. Is your avatar a guy who named a band after the process of nazis using women from concentration camps as sex slaves? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock001 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Tell me how the fact that there was no mayday call is sufficient for you to claim the crash must have been caused by the pilot. It isn't. Hence me never saying that but lots of people getting upset because they didn't bother to read and just decided I had anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Looks like the funerals have started. Is it just me who thinks the police honour guard and motorcycle outriders were out of order at the pilot's funeral? The lack of a mayday call means it was almost certainly pilot error, so why does the public foot the bill? Tell me how the fact that there was no mayday call is sufficient for you to claim the crash must have been caused by the pilot. It isn't. Hence me never saying that but lots of people getting upset because they didn't bother to read and just decided I had anyway. Just walk away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Is your avatar a guy who named a band after the process of nazis using women from concentration camps as sex slaves? Yes, it's Ian Curtis. I'll organise some sort of gold star for you when I can be arsed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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