Burma Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Scotland did vote en masse for Brown partly because he hoovered up plenty of 'voting Labour is the only way to keep the tories out' votes. That worked out well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 That worked out well. Which is why we need independence in order to get the government we vote for etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Never mind Darling, what about Gordon Brown storming off in a huff on STV! Brilliant, just brilliant!!! And of course the No campaign are not rattled, no, no, they are well ahead in the polls and can't lose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Never mind Darling, what about Gordon Brown storming off in a huff on STV! Brilliant, just brilliant!!! What's this about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 What's this about? http://news.stv.tv/tayside/264533-gordon-brown-questions-affordability-of-pensions-after-independence/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burma Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Never mind Darling, what about Gordon Brown storming off in a huff on STV! Brilliant, just brilliant!!! And of course the No campaign are not rattled, no, no, they are well ahead in the polls and can't lose Yes it was pretty lightweight stuff from Brown. Cameron refuses to discuss his lovebombing. Ossie storms past Bernard Ponsonby without even looking at him. And now Gordo takes the huff because he was asked about "the perception of bullying". Now the media is beginning to ask questions of the NO campaign and they dont seem to like it much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAFC Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 Ian Paisley should be the new figurehead. No because, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flogelsleftpeg Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Which is why we need independence in order to get the government we vote for etc. what about the people of an independent Scotland who don't vote for the government they end up with? Who will they moan about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 what about the people of an independent Scotland who don't vote for the government they end up with? Who will they moan about? This is a common misunderstanding of what is meant by the democratic deficit, put simply it's not the fact that Scotland votes labour and get's Tory that consititutes the deficit, but rather that what Scotland votes for is irrelevent to the final result. When the UK gets a Labour government it's a consequence of England voting in the majority for Labour, the Scottish vote simply doesn't have enough wieght to make a difference in all but the closest cases. So Scotland only ever gets the government England votes for, regardless of party - and the only way to make politicians accountable is to make them dependent on your votes. The upshot of that is that politicians do not listen to the concerns of Scots, because they don't have to (altruism simply doesn't exist for these people), they are not dependent on Scottish goodwill to keep thier jobs by and large and thus we are ignored by one side and taken for granted by the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 This is a common misunderstanding of what is meant by the democratic deficit, put simply it's not the fact that Scotland votes labour and get's Tory that consititutes the deficit, but rather that what Scotland votes for is irrelevent to the final result. When the UK gets a Labour government it's a consequence of England voting in the majority for Labour, the Scottish vote simply doesn't have enough wieght to make a difference in all but the closest cases. So Scotland only ever gets the government England votes for, regardless of party - and the only way to make politicians accountable is to make them dependent on your votes. The upshot of that is that politicians do not listen to the concerns of Scots, because they don't have to (altruism simply doesn't exist for these people), they are not dependent on Scottish goodwill to keep thier jobs by and large and thus we are ignored by one side and taken for granted by the other. I think the democractoc deficit point is a good one, probably yes strongest campaign message, but it;s worth noting that Scottish votes did make a difference in 2010 - it denied the Cameron a majority. Now most of us would probably say "What difference did that make" - I'll leave such defences of the Lib dems to Ad Lib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think the democractoc deficit point is a good one, probably yes strongest campaign message, but it;s worth noting that Scottish votes did make a difference in 2010 - it denied the Cameron a majority. Now most of us would probably say "What difference did that make" - I'll leave such defences of the Lib dems to Ad Lib. True enough, it did - subtracting the Scotish votes from the second Wilson government would've changed a 6 seat labour majority into a hung parliament as well. So, 2 out of 18 GEs since the war where Scottish votes have mattered. Hardly inspiring is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 True enough, it did - subtracting the Scotish votes from the second Wilson government would've changed a 6 seat labour majority into a hung parliament as well. So, 2 out of 18 GEs since the war where Scottish votes have mattered. Hardly inspiring is it? I don't wish to labour the point (arf arf) - simply point out that they have had an effect in the last election. I wonder what Scotland would look like if westminster had PR - i daresay the tories would have afew more seats. And of course, the votes of Scottish MPs were rather important in bringing in Thatcher.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jambo-rocker Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I don't wish to labour the point (arf arf) - simply point out that they have had an effect in the last election. I wonder what Scotland would look like if westminster had PR - i daresay the tories would have afew more seats. And of course, the votes of Scottish MPs were rather important in bringing in Thatcher.... Which in fairness stemmed from the back of an utter Callaghan fuelled IMF bailout and 'winter of discontent' clusterfuck. You can't really blame the electorate for not having hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Which in fairness stemmed from the back of an utter Callaghan fuelled IMF bailout and 'winter of discontent' clusterfuck. You can't really blame the electorate for not having hindsight. I;m just at it. it was SNP MPs who first tabled a motion of no confidence in Callaghan. which led to Thatcher's election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jambo-rocker Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I;m just at it. it was SNP MPs who first tabled a motion of no confidence in Callaghan. which led to Thatcher's election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I;m just at it. it was SNP MPs who first tabled a motion of no confidence in Callaghan. which led to Thatcher's election. So we've to blame the SNP for doing the right thing, ffs, how desperate can we be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 So we've to blame the SNP for doing the right thing, ffs, how desperate can we be. If you think ushering in over a decade of Thatcher rule was the right thing then sure, the SNP are blameless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 If you think ushering in over a decade of Thatcher rule was the right thing then sure, the SNP are blameless. You're sounding as desperate as No with that shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Facts are facts mate. The SNP paved the way for Thatcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sons superhero Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Callaghan's inept government surely paved the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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