SPFL 16-16-10

[TheLip69]

It's neither of these things given that it isn't going to happen until 2016 until the earliest.

Yes I know but the fact that it's even being discussed, far less considered, leads me to believe there may be ulterior motives.

I suggested, I believe in this thread but it may have been on one of the other reconstruction threads, that it was a way of replacing the lost home matches if the league went to 16.

It's a suggestion that has always been derided on here as a step backwards and I cannot see any reason, other than my original suggestion, for it's potential return.

[Myview]

Has the views changed as the season comes to a conclusion. The way I see it we will never have all the top teams ( fans based ) ever in the top league without reconstruction. With all respect to QOS and Falkirk. Rangers, Hearts and Hibs only two can go up and if that is the case two top teams must come down. Therefore as it stands at present Rangers Hearts Hibs Motherwell and St Mirren, three of them must be in the Championship next (every) season. And it could be four if QOS or Falkirk go up which is quite possible. Livi may be forced to go part time and that's with Rangers Hearts and Hibs in the league giving the more revenue. Any views?

[parsforlife]

No, because all the rational arguments put forward before still stand absolutely true.

Manipulation to get all the so called top teams in the same league is fundamentally wrong, it's meant to be sport.

Besides a 16 team top league wouldn't do that anyway, just as we won't have the top 12 supported teams in the premiership in a 16 team league you will get better supported teams in lower divisions.

[Myview]

I agree totally with you in sporting integrity! I just fear without the revenue the standard of Scottish football will fall and even worse some teams may not survive. It's been said that already 10 out of the 21 full time clubs average less than 4000 at home. Sadly Livingston may well be the next to go p/t ( if they survive.)

[lubo_blaha]

I agree totally with you in sporting integrity! I just fear without the revenue the standard of Scottish football will fall and even worse some teams may not survive. It's been said that already 10 out of the 21 full time clubs average less than 4000 at home. Sadly Livingston may well be the next to go p/t ( if they survive.)

What point are you trying to make? Near enough every Premiership team is doing alright financially, your Livingston example comes at a time when 2nd tier crowds are at an all time high so how could manipulating the leagues to allow teams with bigger supports to be promoted possibly help the situation?

Out of the teams averaging less than 4000 at home, I don't think many are expected to be getting much more than that.

[Myview]

I'm not saying any premier teams at the moment are verging on administration however I was trying to increase the revenue of the premier clubs to enable them to sign a better calibre of player which would be a better product to sell to both the tv and football fans. Lawwell recently said Celtic have lost £10m a year since Rangers left the league. How much has other premier clubs lost? We used to lose our top players to the English Premiership but now it is to Championship teams. Just heard Robbie Neilson on tv saying Hearts will be doing next seasons signings in the summer after contracts are up as Hearts have no money to pay transfer fees. I genuinely think next season will be full of loans and out of contract players.

[ShawfieldAggro]

I agree totally with you in sporting integrity! I just fear without the revenue the standard of Scottish football will fall and even worse some teams may not survive. It's been said that already 10 out of the 21 full time clubs average less than 4000 at home. Sadly Livingston may well be the next to go p/t ( if they survive.)

In the old (normal) days, with the top 3 Ch-ship sides in the Prem, i can guarantee there were never, ever, ever nine other clubs outwith it averaging anywhere near 4000. Three at most at any one time. If Livingston haven't managed to balance anything out by being lucky enough to pull in six far larger gates than they'd get any other year, then they simply aren't going to make it work without them.

[parsforlife]

I'm not saying any premier teams at the moment are verging on administration however I was trying to increase the revenue of the premier clubs to enable them to sign a better calibre of player which would be a better product to sell to both the tv and football fans. Lawwell recently said Celtic have lost £10m a year since Rangers left the league. How much has other premier clubs lost? We used to lose our top players to the English Premiership but now it is to Championship teams. Just heard Robbie Neilson on tv saying Hearts will be doing next seasons signings in the summer after contracts are up as Hearts have no money to pay transfer fees. I genuinely think next season will be full of loans and out of contract players.

Other premier clubs haven't suffered, there fans still turn up because nothing has changed for them. Celtic have sufferered because they always based themselves against rangers, frankly that's no concern of anyone else and a reduction of there revenue could be a good thing if it brings them closer to the rest.

Hearts are no different to pretty much everyone else in that regard, and it's not a new thing either, a club not even a year out of admin having to be careful with how they spend there cash is also no surprise.

If revenue is your concern then taking over 20% of games away is hardly going to help that is it?

[HibeeJibee]

The way I see it we will never have all the top teams ( fans based ) ever in the top league without reconstruction. With all respect to QOS and Falkirk. Rangers, Hearts and Hibs only two can go up and if that is the case two top teams must come down. Therefore as it stands at present Rangers Hearts Hibs Motherwell and St Mirren, three of them must be in the Championship next (every) season. And it could be four if QOS or Falkirk go up which is quite possible. Livi may be forced to go part time and that's with Rangers Hearts and Hibs in the league giving the more revenue. Any views?

I just fear without the revenue the standard of Scottish football will fall and even worse some teams may not survive. It's been said that already 10 out of the 21 full time clubs average less than 4000 at home. Sadly Livingston may well be the next to go p/t ( if they survive.)

I'm not saying any premier teams at the moment are verging on administration however I was trying to increase the revenue of the premier clubs to enable them to sign a better calibre of player which would be a better product to sell to both the tv and football fans. Lawwell recently said Celtic have lost £10m a year since Rangers left the league. How much has other premier clubs lost? We used to lose our top players to the English Premiership but now it is to Championship teams.

Armageddon.

Nuclear winter.

Slow, lingering death.

Social unrest.

etc.

[Myview]

I appreciate your thoughts and yes fans are turning up but not as many as years gone by. I don't agree it may be a good thing Celtic have less revenue as it brings them closer to the rest. Surely it's better if Celtic improve and the rest have to catch up with them. We need a strong Celtic for coefficient points. I agree Hearts are being very sensible and I must congratulate them as a club for what they have achieved this season on and off the park. Maybe I'm too pessimistic but not long ago in Scotland we were watching Larsson Di Canio Hooijdonk Cadette Laudrop Gasgoine Van Bronkhurst Sauzee. We could all add many many more of that quality. Compare them with their present day replacements! Only Celtic most seasons do us proud in Europe. Only 4 players named in Strachans 23 man squad are playing in Scotland and three from the same club. Hopefully Scottish teams will improve during the coming seasons and the crowds will return to see quality football. However to bring in top players you need revenue.

[HibeeJibee]

Those sorts of foreign players aren't playing here, and most Scottish internationals are playing in England, because... the Sir David Murray era at Rangers is long gone; the income of big foreign leagues - especially EPL - has gone through the roof (big reason); and most other Scottish clubs are now operating sustainably, not stacking-up debt.

Returning 'the big clubs' to the top tier - which could happen as soon as this summer with 1 exception - is going to have no meaningful impact on that situation. It's never going to generate the sort of money to have a noticeable impact on spending, to combat England and other large nations to any sort of tangible degree.

Even if you went to a 10-team SPL and had all the 'Big 8' clubs in it, the extra figures would be comparatively puny.

[parsforlife]

You realise the stats don't back you up here? HJ will have the precise stats but Fans are pretty much turning up in the same numbers as any point since the post-war boom. Attendances go up and Down almost in an exact match to the economy.

The players you mention are from the 90s and early 2000s, you may want to look at the losses that clubs raked up back then- hint it does not make pretty reading.

[Myview]

Yes and let's not start the Rangers financial situation topic. Hopefully they are moving on. The majority of fans will probably not like this thought however if we can look at this through strengthening the league and clubs and not through the passion of supporting your team. Scotland have only 5m+ people. 42 clubs. How many are regular fans attending matches I'm not sure but I'm sure we could add up last weekends attendances ( about 140k ? ). Add to this fans who may return if the the quality of player and performance improves. Only 300+ at League 2 matches. Should we consider reducing the number of teams and have maybe just two leagues. However here is the controversy. Clubs in easy commuting distance to amalgamate. Obviously the clubs in the lower leagues it may three or possibly four to amalgamate. Sell off the grounds build one new stadium. I recognise some will say no chance will I go to watch this ' new' club but time will move on. Where did Third Lanark fans go? Meadowbank Thistle some fans now Livingston fans and add the new ones from West Lothian area. Some old Dodgers may take the puff ( I remember Rangers fans saying they would not return if Rangers signed a catholic! )but our young fans will chose there own team with their mates. Meadowbank who dad? I'm not brave enough to group clubs as my geography is not good! That's my excuse!

[HibeeJibee]

If you amalgamated Cowdenbeath, Dunfermline, East Fife and Raith the resulting "Fife United" (or whatever it could be called) would get lower crowds than one gets at the moment. Many would be lost to the game, many more watch local or phoenix clubs. How many Meadowbank fans now watch Livi, btw?

[RabidAl]

Clubs in easy commuting distance to amalgamate. Obviously the clubs in the lower leagues it may three or possibly four to amalgamate. Sell off the grounds build one new stadium. I recognise some will say no chance will I go to watch this ' new' club but time will move on. Where did Third Lanark fans go? Meadowbank Thistle some fans now Livingston fans and add the new ones from West Lothian area. Some old Dodgers may take the puff ( I remember Rangers fans saying they would not return if Rangers signed a catholic! )but our young fans will chose there own team with their mates. Meadowbank who dad? I'm not brave enough to group clubs as my geography is not good! That's my excuse!

Isn't the whole point to support your home town club or your local club? Somewhere that you've spent years of your life and have a real connection with?

Maybe if you were starting from scratch then this would be logical and folk would support their district team, but it wouldn't work where a sport has evolved subjectively in a country's communities for well over a hundred years.

What you're suggesting would probably kill the game off - not so much support your local club, more like club your local support.

[Myview]

Initially yes I agree some fans would stay away however I would hope with a new modern family orientated stadium, and the team starting to compete with the top teams through quality players and performance crowds would increase. Not sure how many Meadowbank fans watch Livingston now. Just googled... it is 20 years ago so for various reasons some now may not be able to attend. I agree it would be a lot easier if starting from scratch. I also agree in the ideal world it would be great if we all supported our local team but many support the team their dad supported even if the family have moved town. Not sure a Rangers/ Celtic family moving to Edinburgh or Dundee or the other way would change their allegiance to support the local team. To summarise I'm very envious of the standard of play and media coverage of the EPL and Championship. Two leagues of 12? Twelve matches and discounting Rangers/Celtic (crowds 40000 each) the other matches between 10-15000. With the aim to increase these crowds.

[RabidAl]

Fair enough Myview! But it's not, er, my...view. Sorry.

You realise the stats don't back you up here? HJ will have the precise stats but Fans are pretty much turning up in the same numbers as any point since the post-war boom. Attendances go up and Down almost in an exact match to the economy.

The players you mention are from the 90s and early 2000s, you may want to look at the losses that clubs raked up back then- hint it does not make pretty reading.

Not sure that you're correct there chief.

The PWC part of the McLeish Review states that attendances were falling from the inception of the 12-team SPL - by 13% (Part II; p.55).

This was a decade where the economy was experiencing one of the longest runs of sustained growth in history, and British people were the most prosperous they had ever been. Yet attendances were falling.

So attendances aren't in synch with the economy and other factors have to be considered.

[jamamafegan]

Jackie McNamara saying a 16-18 team top flight is needed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32348963

I've always said the top flight should be bigger. Play each team home and away once, 30 league games a season, and then you have cup games on top of that.

Watching your team play someone you've already faced 3 times in the season reduces the novelty and excitement of playing them IMO.

[HibeeJibee]

What would generate a bigger crowd for United - second visits of e.g. Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee and St Johnstone or their replacement by e.g. St Mirren, QotS, Falkirk, Raith?

How much would McNamara's budget have to be reduced by if the number of clubs got increased by 4 or 6 simultaneously with the number of games being reduced by 8 or 4? (Not to mention the proliferation of meaningless mid-table matches for many).

Has he considered either? I suspect not.

EDIT: Also LC crowds are low enough now, without adding boring groups or as he suggests 2nd legs. (Which is also playing teams more repetitively?!).

[jamamafegan]

What would generate a bigger crowd for United - second visits of e.g. Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee and St Johnstone or their replacement by e.g. St Mirren, QotS, Falkirk, Raith?

How much would McNamara's budget have to be reduced by if the number of clubs got increased by 4 or 6 simultaneously with the number of games being reduced by 4 or 8?

Has he considered either?

For away fans it's about the novelty of visiting a stadium. If you know that you might be visiting Tannadice for example on only one occasion during the season then you might be like "I like Tannadice, and unless we get them in the cup I'll not get the chance to go this season. I better arrange to make this game."

At the moment it's like "well, I've been to Tannadice already this season. Don't really fancy going again, so I'll probably just save my money and not go." The novelty wears off. Especially when you end up drawing these teams in the cup and, like United this season, you end up playing them a ridiculous amount of times.