Cannibal Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 How many doubles has the lauded Broon-eye clocked up in a one-horse race, then?? In his time at Celtic, national Cups must have just miraculously fallen into the hands of Hearts, Dundee Utd, Kilmarnock, St.Mirren Aberdeen and St.Johnstone because they must be great teams then....a flat NO on that score. Only one of the above has subsequently played in a final playoff round in representing our country in Europe......testament to how poor they are, and that a fully attuned international-class Celtic captain would do the utmost to ensure his team would win instead. Particularly with no Kinning Park in sight. Whilst Ferguson was strutting around the parks of Scotland, only Hearts and Hibs pocketed trophies....and one of those two threatened to wrestle the title off the Old Firm....TWICE.....On the subject of opinions re Ferguson, it's absolutely fine to think he was good, pish or otherwise......but to even joke that jesters like Brown and Fletcher exerted as much quality on that stage in a Scotland shirt is strait-jaikit material. UG is using a bit of a typical atomic bomb example of the Rangers' fans disdain of him, largely because he was a p***k for a sizable chunk of his career. The guy is acutely aware of this, and rightly doesnt need to worry about it, because he's a fucking millionaire with a house full of medals. We're not talking popularity contests here, its a quality of product, people make the same distinctions with Duncan Disorderly and Maureen Johnston not being as 'good' as likeable quiet boys like Kevin Gallacher and Billy Dodds. Had they and their situations been managed correctly, perhaps we wouldn't have went tumbling out of group stages every two years and maybe not waited nearly twenty years to get back to one. Celtic clearly have a poorer team now than the Rangers team Ferguson played in. I don't see in any case what bearing that has on your description of Ferguson as "Easily the last genuinely top-class player this country's produced". He was a good player - I don't think anyone is disputing that. The opposition is coming from your putting him up on a pedestal and for some reason talking down Scott Brown and anyone who might have a claim to being a better player Calling Fletcher a "jester" does not help your case. Whether or not you rate him, he has won many trophies at a higher level over a long period of time - including a Champions League which I would say trumps a "double" every other year in Scotland. The fact he was fighting for a place in one of the top teams in the world rather than "strolling" around the pitch in the SPL playing against vastly inferior teams is to his credit - and the fact Ferguson couldn't hack it down there is also worth noting. I quite honestly don't know what the rest of your post means. All the talk of Hibs, Hearts pocketing trophies, "quality of product", "distinctions with Duncan Disorderly"? What does this mean never mind have to do with BF being the only top class Scottish player in recent times? Are you slagging off Kevin Gallacher as well - a guy that helped get Dundee United to a UEFA Cup Final and scored almost every goal the last time Scotland actually qualified for something (as well as scoring many goals in the English top flight)? If it came down to it I would say none of them were "genuinely top class" and you'd have to go a bit further back than Ferguson before finding someone who fits that bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawfieldAggro Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I mentioned the other players in relation to the generally widely-accepted notion that because someone behaves like a p***k, and appears to be disliked, it should cloud their achievements. Or, on the flip side, the quiet unassuming controversy-free guys are better to have around because they're nice boys. That doesn't make anyone a better player, or the team any better. I dragged Gallacher into it as an example of the kind of player people preferred to have in the side based on personality, instead of the ability possessed by the likes of Duncan F snd Mo Johnston. Automatically playing for Rangers or Celtic conversely doesn't automatically bestow medals and titles on a player either......those are earned, despite the hype or people's need for an agenda just because Scotland, like many other nations, had two dominant forces. The mentions of Hibs and Hearts is an example of how difficult it was for teams between 1998 and 2006 to lay their mits on a trophy.......Livingston i think were the only ones, but BF was at Blackburn at the time. Clearly the top-end of the Scottish game had a higher intensity at that time, as opposed to that during Brown's time at Celtic and in particular following the death of Rangers, and as one of the few Scots to last that long in the middle of it at its height, Ferguson brought that to the table with the international side to a degree, in my opinion, which we haven't seen since. That's what end product means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spider Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 The game's all about opinions and for once we appear (benefit of the doubt Shaggro that you weren't solely trying to wind up your multiple personality disorder pal) to have a serious discussion without being side-tracked (and I'm as guilty as the rest) by one-upmanship contests. It would be all to easy for me to jump on the backlash bandwagon, but I'm not going to decry someone's judgement of another player as this would be an extremely dull forum without diverse opinion. Personally I think Ferguson did produce a couple of masterclass performances (single handedly pulling us back from the brink away to The Faroes, and in our last Wembley victory), but what puts him on a par with the five players in the last six years I mentioned (specifically targeting your "Easily the LAST genuinely top-class player" claim so my time-frame is valid!) is that none of them performed at their highest level consistently enough to be rated "top-class" in an international sense. Like McStay I also thought that Barry took the safe option of a sideways pass more often than a top class player would, and that like McStay, Brown & Fletcher he didn't score sufficient international goals that a top class midfielder would (John Wark got 7 in 29 games for example compared to Barry's 3 in 45). I would have to go back quite a long way before I could find a Scottish player whom I deemed worthy of your top class accolade. Dalglish's last cap was in 1986, so looking at the period since then the only player I think merits that tag is James McFadden, but perhaps I just have higher expectations than you? To answer your subsequent (perhaps rhetorical) query "you want a straight up conversation(?)", I'll be happy to debate any football-related issue with you at any time. You may recall that I offered to do so over a drink on one occasion (I've yet to withdraw that offer), but you were far more concerned about preserving your self-proclaimed "come and have a go with the Shawfield Aggero" (funny how it needed that extra syllable to work!) ego. It always amuses me that it's usually the least secure in our society who interpret such gestures as a sign of weakness, so I'm sure you'll not disappoint us all by failing to dispense your stock-in-trade "snivelling weasel" rebuke that you periodically roll-out to maintain the facade, or will the real quinquagenarian come out from behind the mask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawfield shed boy Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Aggro no allowed oot anymore for a drink Spider Shame cause the Younger version was never in bit like me in the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawfieldAggro Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 No mask here, champ. No wind up was intended, although he seems to have disappeared. I'll be honest enough to admit i actually enjoyed reading your response, but the last bit, in the spirit of irony i'm sure, left us a little open. I wouldn't say higher expectations, more a slight appreciation of what players can do rather than what they cannot. McStay, i agree, took the easy option, and often only really experienced cut-throat cross-border football in a Scotland shirt. The goals count is hardly startling, David Hopkin managed two in ten minutes where Baz took nine years to find three, but the more i watched Scotland, especially against the Slav and Soviet states, the poverty of our footballers became more and more apparent. Lithuanian centre-forwards looked better than ours, Slovenian centre halves could actually run with the ball at their feet. Ours could barely stay on theirs. Watching the few players we actually had who could crawl out from under this carpet of pish, talking Ferguson, Lambert, McCann, McFadden, Gordon, Fletcher (at the start) and probably Miller and Hartley too, was still quite hard going i felt....Ferguson was grnerally the only one who seemed comfortable bossing a game, and with piss poor mediocrity alongside him a helluva lot of occasions, i grew a particular admiration for the stsndard at which he was operating. Its well seen that when he made the Uefa Cup final, it wasn't with anything like the team of superstars he walked into and captained at 20 years old either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spider Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Initial part of your response received and understood. Where we'll continue to disagree is that you seem to believe that that Barry's superiority to those around him made him top class, whereas my take is that his Shields-like limitations made him king of the blind. This is not the correct thread to be discussing non-Clyde related Scotland players, so I'll conclude by confirming that you hit the nail on the head with your Lithuanian centre forwards observations. It was always a source of frustration to me that a crap team could turn up at Hampden with two journeyman strikers (well short of the Rush and Hughes pairing) and run our back four ragged, whilst we countered with a diminutive lone frontman. How I longed for a sense of adventure, which we only saw in the late stages of an away match in Spain of all places. Still think we missed a trick in not pairing Rhodes with Mackail-Smith, but that's another story for another time. Meantime, accept my very best wishes for success in your next league game.....................................ya dobber! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannibal Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 No mask here, champ. No wind up was intended, although he seems to have disappeared. I'll be honest enough to admit i actually enjoyed reading your response, but the last bit, in the spirit of irony i'm sure, left us a little open. I wouldn't say higher expectations, more a slight appreciation of what players can do rather than what they cannot. McStay, i agree, took the easy option, and often only really experienced cut-throat cross-border football in a Scotland shirt. The goals count is hardly startling, David Hopkin managed two in ten minutes where Baz took nine years to find three, but the more i watched Scotland, especially against the Slav and Soviet states, the poverty of our footballers became more and more apparent. Lithuanian centre-forwards looked better than ours, Slovenian centre halves could actually run with the ball at their feet. Ours could barely stay on theirs. Watching the few players we actually had who could crawl out from under this carpet of pish, talking Ferguson, Lambert, McCann, McFadden, Gordon, Fletcher (at the start) and probably Miller and Hartley too, was still quite hard going i felt....Ferguson was grnerally the only one who seemed comfortable bossing a game, and with piss poor mediocrity alongside him a helluva lot of occasions, i grew a particular admiration for the stsndard at which he was operating. Its well seen that when he made the Uefa Cup final, it wasn't with anything like the team of superstars he walked into and captained at 20 years old either... No offence but I cannot understand how you found anything admirable about the Rangers team that got to the Uefa Cup Final. They were as negative a team as I have ever seen. "Baz" would have got to "three" earlier if he hadn't missed an utter sitter in the Belgium 2-2 game. I still cannot believe it didn't go in. Maybe this is the source of my animosity....in any case Collins, Lambert were better as were McAllister, Strachan and several others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannibal Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Anyway...what's the latest on the EGM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammyton Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Another meeting took place re EK this week. Lots of humble pie for Clyde fans soon. EK Clyde will not sound too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanMck Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 How's Alan Martin been for you guys? He was quality for us in his short spell a few years ago so I'm surprised to see him at League 2 level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullyWeeLad Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 How's Alan Martin been for you guys? He was quality for us in his short spell a few years ago so I'm surprised to see him at League 2 level. Easily the best keeper in the league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde4life Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Aye he's good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawfield shed boy Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Hes best keeper since howie . Probably better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spider Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 but not better than Atkins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clyde66 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 but not better than Atkins? Prior to his leg break there were none better than Atko. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spider Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 You'll probably not like accepting this but Atkins would only have been half the keeper he turned out to be if it wasn't for Stevie Evans' best pal Eddie Hunter. Derek was a fantastic 'keeper who made his debut for Queen's at just 17, but he was (and let's be kind here) more than just a little wary of challenging for crosses. Hunter recognised all his other abilities and spent months working with him after training to get his confidence up (basically by battering into him until he realised that he wasn't really getting hurt after all). Disappointing that he never fully realised his potential (no disrespect intended to Clyde) but I believe that he also had other demons that he never conquered which dissuaded bigger clubs from taking a chance on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clyde66 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 You'll probably not like accepting this but Atkins would only have been half the keeper he turned out to be if it wasn't for Stevie Evans' best pal Eddie Hunter. Derek was a fantastic 'keeper who made his debut for Queen's at just 17, but he was (and let's be kind here) more than just a little wary of challenging for crosses. Hunter recognised all his other abilities and spent months working with him after training to get his confidence up (basically by battering into him until he realised that he wasn't really getting hurt after all). Disappointing that he never fully realised his potential (no disrespect intended to Clyde) but I believe that he also had other demons that he never conquered which dissuaded bigger clubs from taking a chance on him. No thats a fair call. Leg break happened at the wrong time for him and his off the field activties sadly became too important for him - destroyed his career. Still a great keeper though, lost touch with him and bumped into him when out with a few others from the same era. Still a great guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawfield shed boy Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Saw atkins after injury but not before. He was a great keeper when i saw him. Ma old man still raves bout him pre injury. Foreva n eva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spider Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Our typical championship winning team from 1980/81 season began as Atkins, McFarlane, Dickson.......probably brings back some other subsequent fond memories for you guys too, and please don't rub it in about QP being your feeder club at that time - I had it on good authority that every regular member of that side was approached by Clyde to sign for them, but most fancied having a go in the then First Division against Motherwell, Killie, Hearts (finished 3rd!), St Johnstone, Hamilton, Falkirk, Dunfermine etc.......my how times have changed. Funny though, Clyde weren't in the First Division, and we didn't play you the season before either - guess a big club like you must have been in the Premier League at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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