A letter in last night's English newspaper

[AUFC90]

Yep, It's a tough choice to follow any of the current lot, but removing 60 Scottish MP's from Westminster wont improve that for the rest of the Union. I guess that's if you care about the rest of the Union, and if not fair enough! We'll just have to see what September brings.

Ahhh... The old " what about the rest of the UK " argument. Just admit that you have no good reasons for why we are "Better Together ".

[Burma]

Yep, It's a tough choice to follow any of the current lot, but removing 60 Scottish MP's from Westminster wont improve that for the rest of the Union. I guess that's if you care about the rest of the Union, and if not fair enough! We'll just have to see what September brings.

Keeping them there hasnt done much good either. We keep hearing about how staying un the Union means that the less well off in England have a better future. Based on what exactly?

[RedRob72]

Ahhh... The old " what about the rest of the UK " argument. Just admit that you have no good reasons for why we are "Better Together ".

Stronger as part of a stable Union, in terms of our political clout, business growth opportunities, financial security and defence capability, to name but a few. These are all real uncertainties as a separate nation, despite the 'jam tomorrow' promises of Salmond and Sturgeon.

[renton]

Stronger as part of a stable Union, in terms of our political clout, business growth opportunities, financial security and defence capability, to name but a few. These are all real uncertainties as a separate nation, despite the 'jam tomorrow' promises of Salmond and Sturgeon.

What do you mean stable? Certainly, unchanging would be a good word for it - and that's not a compliment (indeed, wer eit capable of change, this referndum would never have been needed)

Political clout? Again, what are the particulars here? Scotland has very little influence on UK politics as a unit, and the UK, generally doesn't have that much say in world politics. Interestingly, were scotland independent, it would have double the number of MEPs in Europe.

Business growth and financial security? UK growth is pretty much in the bin, and what there is is based on yet another housing bubble - the govenor of the BoE dare not raise his interest rates such is the anemic state of the UK economy. There has been no attempt to rebalance the economy, indeed we are seeing even greater concentrations of wealth and activity in London and the South East. Growth in Scotland would be much easier achieved by a scottish state promoting it's own industries and creating it's own opportunities.

defence capability: The Royal navy can't even mount a standing frigate patrol in the north sea. Whatever passes for a defence strategy in these isalnds has been sabotaged by a decade of activity in Afghanistan and the political need to maintain that ultimate national codpiece: Trident. Given the same amount of spending that Scots tax payers currently fork out, you could easily maintain a proper naval presence in the north sea and an equivalent air defenc eot what is currently based in Scotland while also bringing back the Maritime reconnaisance aircraft capability.

[RedRob72]

What do you mean stable? Certainly, unchanging would be a good word for it - and that's not a compliment (indeed, wer eit capable of change, this referndum would never have been needed)

Political clout? Again, what are the particulars here? Scotland has very little influence on UK politics as a unit, and the UK, generally doesn't have that much say in world politics. Interestingly, were scotland independent, it would have double the number of MEPs in Europe.

Business growth and financial security? UK growth is pretty much in the bin, and what there is is based on yet another housing bubble - the govenor of the BoE dare not raise his interest rates such is the anemic state of the UK economy. There has been no attempt to rebalance the economy, indeed we are seeing even greater concentrations of wealth and activity in London and the South East. Growth in Scotland would be much easier achieved by a scottish state promoting it's own industries and creating it's own opportunities.

defence capability: The Royal navy can't even mount a standing frigate patrol in the north sea. Whatever passes for a defence strategy in these isalnds has been sabotaged by a decade of activity in Afghanistan and the political need to maintain that ultimate national codpiece: Trident. Given the same amount of spending that Scots tax payers currently fork out, you could easily maintain a proper naval presence in the north sea and an equivalent air defenc eot what is currently based in Scotland while also bringing back the Maritime reconnaisance aircraft capability.

Still the world's 5th biggest armed force in terms of capability, still the World's 6th biggest economy, (Europe's 3rd largest). Highest %growth of GDP currently across Europe's big 5. Low interest rates, inflation at an eight year low, Strong pound against the euro and dollar, unemployment falling, £14billion pound Chinese investment in the UK just announced, etc etc. We must be doing something right eh??

[renton]

Still the world's 5th biggest armed force in terms of capability, still the World's 6th biggest economy, (Europe's 3rd largest). Highest %growth of GDP currently across Europe's big 5. Low interest rates, inflation at an eight year low, Strong pound against the euro and dollar, unemployment falling, £14billion pound Chinese investment in the UK just announced, etc etc. We must be doing something right eh??

To be honest, the world's 5th biggest armed forces in terms of capability (and that becomes a bit of a woolly calculation tbh) is pointless when number one is the USA (where one strike carrier group has more fast jets on board than the entirety of the RAF). Low interest rates are not necessarily a good thing (and as noted previously, are there due to our weak economy).

As usual our economic growth is fuelled on a housing bubble and as for the falling unemployment? Bad news is that what's happened is that folk have gotten back into work by taking lower paid, less skilled jobs than they had previously. Perhaps the worst effect of of the economic/political forces over the last 6 years has been the transformation of the UK economy towards a lower wage one.

Selling off what's left of the national infrastrucutre to China is not a sign of progress, it just means we couldn't generate any internal investment becuase we decided we didn't need the skills.

Now, that's not to say the UK is a bad place to live, it isn't - but it could and should be a lot better, and it won't ever be. I think an independent Scotland can chart a different course, can be a nation beholden to the needs and challenges of it's own electorate, I think smaller nations are a bit more flexible, easier to change course - and if we are not a world power? Who cares?

[RedRob72]

All fair points.. but also to consider

1) Low interest rates attract investment both internally and Internationally

2) Agree on low wages (and Zero hours contracts), but rather in work and contributing than the tax payer picking up the bill.

3) Would you rather China spent their money elsewhere, do we just say no thanks?

Defence? I'd rather keep a deterrent thanks.

[renton]

All fair points.. but also to consider

1) Low interest rates attract investment both internally and Internationally

2) Agree on low wages (and Zero hours contracts), but rather in work and contributing than the tax payer picking up the bill.

3) Would you rather China spent their money elsewhere, do we just say no thanks?

Defence? I'd rather keep a deterrent thanks.

Low interest rates also screw savers. Swings and roundabouts, but I just wouldn't take such a temporary situation, noe way or the other and present it as a reason to stay in the UK, those rates will be up soon enough anyway.

Again, any work is better than none, I agree - but there is a clear lack of planning (from everybody) in trying to raise wages, either through introducing a living wage, fixed contract lengths or redistrbuting the economy to focus on sectors that would create higher paying, more skilled jobs.

Again, any investment is better than none, Beggars can't be choosers, but I'd rather the nation was not in the position of needing to be a beggar. We are suffering now from 40 odd years of neo-liberalist culture that has eroded the skills base and sapped any chance of creating large competitive commercial enterprises ourselves that could generate investment and crucially, sell stuff to other people. As it is, the new generation of nuclear reactors will be massively subsidised from the UK tax payer, which means UK tax money will be going directly into the pocket of the Chinese government (why not cut out the middle man!).

As for Defence and particularly the deterrent, I don't think it honestly protects us, I don't think it ever did. It was only ever a backup to the US missile shield in case they got cold feet, and even then it's effectiveness was limited - could it have done enough damage to the soviets to make them think twice? I really doubt it tbh. These days there isn't even really a target for them to shoot at.

[RedRob72]

Low interest rates also screw savers. Swings and roundabouts, but I just wouldn't take such a temporary situation, noe way or the other and present it as a reason to stay in the UK, those rates will be up soon enough anyway.

Again, any work is better than none, I agree - but there is a clear lack of planning (from everybody) in trying to raise wages, either through introducing a living wage, fixed contract lengths or redistrbuting the economy to focus on sectors that would create higher paying, more skilled jobs.

Again, any investment is better than none, Beggars can't be choosers, but I'd rather the nation was not in the position of needing to be a beggar. We are suffering now from 40 odd years of neo-liberalist culture that has eroded the skills base and sapped any chance of creating large competitive commercial enterprises ourselves that could generate investment and crucially, sell stuff to other people. As it is, the new generation of nuclear reactors will be massively subsidised from the UK tax payer, which means UK tax money will be going directly into the pocket of the Chinese government (why not cut out the middle man!).

As for Defence and particularly the deterrent, I don't think it honestly protects us, I don't think it ever did. It was only ever a backup to the US missile shield in case they got cold feet, and even then it's effectiveness was limited - could it have done enough damage to the soviets to make them think twice? I really doubt it tbh. These days there isn't even really a target for them to shoot at.

Its hard to disagree with any of that mate, but I hardly think we are a 'Beggar Nation'. However I can't see past how independence will improve on what we have, only destabilise current progress. Continued pooling of resources across the UK (Tax income,investment, industrial/commercial expertise etc..) is better for everyone within these Isles!

The SNP are running the Yes campaign, there is no doubt about about that, they've been in power for 7 years now, I don't want to give them carte blanche on a wish list they can't and won't deliver in my opinion.

I'd like to keep it the way it is, but respect your position entirely.

Right that's me away to the bookies for a few quid on Uruguay!

Cheers

[Gaz]

Its hard to disagree with any of that mate, but I hardly think we are a 'Beggar Nation'. However I can't see past how independence will improve on what we have, only destabilise current progress. Continued pooling of resources across the UK (Tax income,investment, industrial/commercial expertise etc..) is better for everyone within these Isles!

The SNP are running the Yes campaign, there is no doubt about about that, they've been in power for 7 years now, I don't want to give them carte blanche on a wish list they can't and won't deliver in my opinion.

I'd like to keep it the way it is, but respect your position entirely.

Right that's me away to the bookies for a few quid on Uruguay!

Cheers

Could you elaborate on the 'current progress' that we are making? And explain how independence will destabilise it?

[Confidemus]

Its hard to disagree with any of that mate, but I hardly think we are a 'Beggar Nation'. However I can't see past how independence will improve on what we have, only destabilise current progress. Continued pooling of resources across the UK (Tax income,investment, industrial/commercial expertise etc..) is better for everyone within these Isles!

The SNP are running the Yes campaign, there is no doubt about about that, they've been in power for 7 years now, I don't want to give them carte blanche on a wish list they can't and won't deliver in my opinion.

I'd like to keep it the way it is, but respect your position entirely.

Right that's me away to the bookies for a few quid on Uruguay!

Cheers

You've also yet to highlight which of the current Westminster parties are going to tackle austerity, child poverty, the gap between rich and poor and social inequality. No Westminster parties are interested.

But if you want to champion being the world's police, benefits for the rich, an increase in zero hours contracts, a corrupt Westminster based on a London-centric economy and no prospect of improvement you vote No.

[Raven]

Correct, so why limit the vote to Scots living abroad?

No idea why you ask me that. I was discussing an example in response to the wallpaper analogy a couple of pages back, and nothing else about limits. I think there are people excluded from the vote whose reasons for thinking they should have one are not simply dismisable as stupid. That was all. Now, lets find out from the rest of the thread whether Westminster or Holyrood are the best bet to eradicate poverty ...

[The_Kincardine]

Oh deary me. I haven't viewed this thread since I posted before I got my train yesterday morning. Since then there have been more than 60 posts involving a purported German-supporting Rangers fan named RedRob72 yet not one poster called him questionable..

See The Nats? See gullibility? I can now see why you've been drawn in.

[Baxter Parp]

No idea why you ask me that. ..

Because you thought Scots living abroad may have a case for having a vote as they're "stakeholders" and may return home. My point was that if there's no ethnic qualification then anybody who might fancy living in Scotland for a bit is just as much a "stakeholder" as they are.

[git-intae-thum]

Oh deary me. I haven't viewed this thread since I posted before I got my train yesterday morning. Since then there have been more than 60 posts involving a purported German-supporting Rangers fan named RedRob72 yet not one poster called him questionable..

See The Nats? See gullibility? I can now see why you've been drawn in.

That is one Hair Brained idea????

[RedRob72]

Oh deary me. I haven't viewed this thread since I posted before I got my train yesterday morning. Since then there have been more than 60 posts involving a purported German-supporting Rangers fan named RedRob72 yet not one poster called him questionable..

See The Nats? See gullibility? I can now see why you've been drawn in.

Sorry mate you're so wrong, I've followed Rangers for 35 years. A true blue through and through! I can see both sides clearly in this debate, but I'm happy with where I'm at.

Follow Follow

(Germany was the team I picked out in the work's sweep btw)

[Gaz]

Sorry mate you're so wrong, I've followed Rangers for 35 years. A true blue through and through! I can see both sides clearly in this debate, but I'm happy with where I'm at.

Follow Follow

(Germany was the team I picked out in the work's sweep btw)

Any chance you could expand on the 'current progress' that we are making that independence would destabilise?

[Gaz]

Oh deary me. I haven't viewed this thread since I posted before I got my train yesterday morning. Since then there have been more than 60 posts involving a purported German-supporting Rangers fan named RedRob72 yet not one poster called him questionable..

See The Nats? See gullibility? I can now see why you've been drawn in.

I noticed that but to be honest I didn't question it as I couldn't be bothered going back and forward again and again. He does tick all the boxes, including being a military fetishist.

[Raven]

Because you thought Scots living abroad may have a case for having a vote as they're "stakeholders" and may return home. My point was that if there's no ethnic qualification then anybody who might fancy living in Scotland for a bit is just as much a "stakeholder" as they are.

That hardly matches up with the example I gave. That would be as stupid as the wallpaper analogy.

[Baxter Parp]

That hardly matches up with the example I gave. That would be as stupid as the wallpaper analogy.

You said someone temporarily working abroad could be considered a stakeholder, didn't you? Now if you're abroad temporarily you can still be registered to vote. So what's the problem?

If you're registered to vote somewhere else you can hardly complain.