Guest JTS98 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights guarantees the right to freedom of expression, including the right not to express a view that one does not hold. I do not want to live in a society where people are forced by the state to express opinions they do not have. At the risk of crossing the border into drama-queenery, that is Nazi Germany/Soviet Union stuff. I am strongly against criminalising opinions and beliefs. You are allowed to believe that homosexuality is wrong. You are allowed to think black people are inferior to white people. You are allowed to believe that the Holocaust never happened and all evidence that it did is a result of a Zionist conspiracy. Holding any of these views may make you a complete arsehole, but being an arsehole is not a crime. We live in what is supposed to be a free society where we have freedom of religion, freedom to our own political beliefs and freedom of expression, including the right to non-expression. Part of that is that people who (perfectly legally) disagree with gay marriage should under no circumstances be forced to produce a cake or a banner or any other product in support of gay marriage. I'd apply this to any other issue as well. It would be an unbelievably dangerous step, for example, to force a unionist flag-maker to produce a flag supporting Scottish independence against his or her will. Find another bakery, and anyone who finds the behaviour of the bakers in this case objectionable is free to never give them any custom. That's freedom of choice as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moomintroll Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights guarantees the right to freedom of expression, including the right not to express a view that one does not hold. I do not want to live in a society where people are forced by the state to express opinions they do not have. At the risk of crossing the border into drama-queenery, that is Nazi Germany/Soviet Union stuff. I am strongly against criminalising opinions and beliefs. You are allowed to believe that homosexuality is wrong. You are allowed to think black people are inferior to white people. You are allowed to believe that the Holocaust never happened and all evidence that it did is a result of a Zionist conspiracy. Holding any of these views may make you a complete arsehole, but being an arsehole is not a crime. We live in what is supposed to be a free society where we have freedom of religion, freedom to our own political beliefs and freedom of expression, including the right to non-expression. Part of that is that people who (perfectly legally) disagree with gay marriage should under no circumstances be forced to produce a cake or a banner or any other product in support of gay marriage. I'd apply this to any other issue as well. It would be an unbelievably dangerous step, for example, to force a unionist flag-maker to produce a flag supporting Scottish independence against his or her will. Find another bakery, and anyone who finds the behaviour of the bakers in this case objectionable is free to never give them any custom. That's freedom of choice as well.Much, to my dismay, I am on old man dangers side with reference to this, I do see merit in your argument here, specifically the arsehole clause. Boringly under Scottish Retail Law you are not obligated to sell anything to anyone at a set price, or indeed at all, it is merely an invitation to treat.If you want to push the price up or refuse acceptillation that is your prerogative as the first party (hence why multipack pricing is illegal under Scottish law). You are not under any legal obligation to sell anything, at any price, to anyone at any price, but to refuse a sale on these grounds marks you out as a bigoted arsehole of the highest order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said: I love Mr kipling cakes. Big fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, Moomintroll said: 18 minutes ago, JTS98 said: Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights guarantees the right to freedom of expression, including the right not to express a view that one does not hold. I do not want to live in a society where people are forced by the state to express opinions they do not have. At the risk of crossing the border into drama-queenery, that is Nazi Germany/Soviet Union stuff. I am strongly against criminalising opinions and beliefs. You are allowed to believe that homosexuality is wrong. You are allowed to think black people are inferior to white people. You are allowed to believe that the Holocaust never happened and all evidence that it did is a result of a Zionist conspiracy. Holding any of these views may make you a complete arsehole, but being an arsehole is not a crime. We live in what is supposed to be a free society where we have freedom of religion, freedom to our own political beliefs and freedom of expression, including the right to non-expression. Part of that is that people who (perfectly legally) disagree with gay marriage should under no circumstances be forced to produce a cake or a banner or any other product in support of gay marriage. I'd apply this to any other issue as well. It would be an unbelievably dangerous step, for example, to force a unionist flag-maker to produce a flag supporting Scottish independence against his or her will. Find another bakery, and anyone who finds the behaviour of the bakers in this case objectionable is free to never give them any custom. That's freedom of choice as well. Much, to my dismay, I am on old man dangers side with reference to this, I do see merit in your argument here, specifically the arsehole clause. Boringly under Scottish Retail Law you are not obligated to sell anything to anyone at a set price, or indeed at all, it is merely an invitation to treat.If you want to push the price up or refuse acceptillation that is your prerogative as the first party (hence why multipack pricing is illegal under Scottish law). You are not under any legal obligation to sell anything, at any price, to anyone at any price, but to refuse a sale on these grounds marks you out as a bigoted arsehole of the highest order. It wasn't a refusal to sell, it was a refusal to produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Because the actions are discriminatory even if the present laws do not treat them as such. The bs the bakery have come out with to put themselves (just) the right side of the law still has them as nasty homophobes. Their position is 'we'll sell cakes to gay people, but why should we have to treat them as equals?' Nobody should be forced by law to say or write something that is counter to their beliefs.Businesses should be free to reject custom if someone is wanting them to support a cause they don't agree with, if a hotel doesn't want to host a party conference or the archers don't want to bake a cake supporting/rejecting brexit then they are well within their rights. When the message you are being asked to write is to accept the customers basic rights then it's a lot more questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moomintroll Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I rejoice in the fact that there are people out there who will be doubly angry as those figures are on a pink cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL-FFC Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Think this sketch sum things up perfectly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Gaines Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Seems a good time to remind folk that Granny Danger voted for Brexit because he had to sign a few forms. Not exactly the most stable minded person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, parsforlife said: The bs the bakery have come out with to put themselves (just) the right side of the law still has them as nasty homophobes. Their position is 'we'll sell cakes to gay people, but why should we have to treat them as equals?' Businesses should be free to reject custom if someone is wanting them to support a cause they don't agree with, if a hotel doesn't want to host a party conference or the archers don't want to bake a cake supporting/rejecting brexit then they are well within their rights. When the message you are being asked to write is to accept the customers basic rights then it's a lot more questionable. It wasn't a wedding cake, it was a political statement campaigning to change the law. Sad to say gay marriage isn't a basic right in Northern Ireland, but you can't force people to support it when they don't think the law should be changed. Presumably they couldn't be forced to make a Brits Out, United Ireland cake either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moomintroll Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 It wasn't a refusal to sell, it was a refusal to produce.Same thing under Scottish Retail Law ( I know it happened in the failed Statelet). You make the offer, socks, get your sports socks, two for a pouend etc, person comes up, you say naw man two pund each, they tell you to f**k off. That is the three stages, they will have offered cakes at £x, they will then have said away with you godless heathen. They were within their rights to do so legally but, in my opinion as a practicing RC who believes in forgiveness, wrong morally. Look at all the devout Muslims who are shopkeepers yet sell alcohol as they recognise that is their livelihood. I admire the people who operate Eurogarages as they refuse to sell alcohol due to their beliefs but it will cost them a fortune in sales and profit,I do not see them refusing to sell fuel to homosexuals even though their religion is not exactly compatible with that way of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Gaines Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 They didn't refuse to sell because who they were, and that's the important thing for me. If they'd lost this case, we'd have started down a slippery slope. I genuinely don't believe that there's even a discussion about this. There's businesses all over the place who don't do things for a whole host of reasons and this is news? f**k off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL-FFC Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I am pretty sure it wasn't the message it was the fact they were religious and it went against their beliefs. Rightly or wrongly everyone has their own belief system whether someone agrees with it or not, do we label someone just because we dont agree with their belief if that is the case then its pretty close to bullying someone into submission because they disagreed with their viewpoint and your forcing them to make the cake with a message they dont agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moomintroll Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I am pretty sure it wasn't the message it was the fact they were religious and it went against their beliefs. Rightly or wrongly everyone has their own belief system whether someone agrees with it or not, do we label someone just because we dont agree with their belief if that is the case then its pretty close to bullying someone into submission because they disagreed with their viewpoint and your forcing them to make the cake with a message they dont agree with. Have to agree with what you and flutie are saying, legally they were not obliged to sell anything to anyone. As human beings they are utterly bigoted thundercunts but that is their choice, would never give them a penny for their business but respect their right to refuse my money if they were Dundee fans as obviously Killie players and fans are subhuman scum if we are to believe the narrative of the last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Angelo Barksdale Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 hour ago, welshbairn said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 hour ago, parsforlife said: The bs the bakery have come out with to put themselves (just) the right side of the law still has them as nasty homophobes.1) Their position is 'we'll sell cakes to gay people, but why should we have to treat them as equals?' Businesses should be free to reject custom if someone is wanting them to support a cause they don't agree with, if a hotel doesn't want to host a party conference or the archers don't want to bake a cake supporting/rejecting brexit then they are well within their rights.2) When the message you are being asked to write is to accept the customers basic rights then it's a lot more questionable. 1) I don't think that's quite an accurate summary of the situation. For example, there are no reports of this business treating gay customers any differently from heterosexual customers. Whether they view gay people as their equals or not is simply a matter for speculation. And, as distasteful as it is, they are allowed to think that gay people are not their equal. Or black people. Or jews. Or whatever. 2) The customer trying to force them to make the cake was failing to accept the bakers' basic rights as enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights. You cannot force someone to express an opinion they disagree with. Human rights are for everyone, not just oppressed groups. Like I said before, it is perfectly fair to hold the view that these folk are bell-ends, but it would have been very dangerous for society if they had lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Sums up my thoughts on the matter. https://rightsinfo.org/peter-tatchell-on-gay-cake-row-supreme-court-ruling-is-victory-for-freedom-of-expression/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialWarfare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Sums up my thoughts on the matter.https://rightsinfo.org/peter-tatchell-on-gay-cake-row-supreme-court-ruling-is-victory-for-freedom-of-expression/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialWarfareYes he’s put it far better than I could but essentially that’s my view exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Apparently the customer knocked back a free alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throbber Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 No one is asking them to endorse the views, simply not discriminate. People using their ‘religious beliefs’ ask a mask for homophobia is the worst sort of shite excuse. If you were to put it to anyone who voted against gay marriage that they were a homophobe they would tell you that they object to it because they believe that marriage is a sacrament and it should be between a man and a woman as that is what the bible preaches (see Jacob Rees Mogg on Good Morning Britain) . That seems like a reasonable enough stance to have for someone who is religious and respects the teachings of the Bible is it not? I’m not sure why people like you feel it necessary to tarnish an entire section of the population as homophobic just because they don’t agree with your stance on gay marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 1 minute ago, throbber said: If you were to put it to anyone who voted against gay marriage that they were a homophobe they would tell you that they object to it because they believe that marriage is a sacrament and it should be between a man and a woman as that is what the bible preaches (see Jacob Rees Mogg on Good Morning Britain) . That seems like a reasonable enough stance to have for someone who is religious and respects the teachings of the Bible is it not? I’m not sure why people like you feel it necessary to tarnish an entire section of the population as homophobic just because they don’t agree with your stance on gay marriage. I think it's because it's all made up shite throbber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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