Americans and their gun culture

[dufc1980]

So why have more guns when you don't know the outcome?

Because the outcome isn't relevant.

Responsible gun owners exist, they in fact make up the vast majority of gun owners.

You cannot penalize them based on the actions of a minority, our society isn't based upon that.

Otherwise a lot more things are about to go in the near future.

[welshbairn]

Bloody hell, it is Supras, and deluded as ever. Every argument he had has been taken apart and he's convinced he's won a great victory.

[pandarilla]

3 different types of Shooting stuff? That's your non-violent purposes?

I like how you recap and just say: non-violent purposes given, tick, argument won.

I also liked your wee alcohol skit. It's a poison- it harms people! Aye, very good.

Does it concern you that you appear to be alone in this issue? You're obviously an alias but that would still concern me. When everyone else except pumped up wee boys that want to look hard is on the other side of the argument then maybe it's time to reevaluate.

[dufc1980]

Bloody hell, it is Supras, and deluded as ever. Every argument he had has been taken apart and he's convinced he's won a great victory.

Alright.

I'm absolutely happy with the outcome of this debate, any neutral (by which I mean someone who isn't hysterical and think guns are the Devil) reading this could not possibly come away with anything other than a more positive attitude towards more liberal gun control in the UK.

I've went over the same points multiple times, answered the same idiotic responses and attempts at mockery.

I'm happy to leave it here and probably will.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Useful non-violent purposes have been presented for guns.

People with useful non-violent reasons to have guns can get certificates allowing them to own them.

If you feel that police Scotland have turned down your application unjustly then I suggest you go to your MSP as opposed to whinging on here about it.

[dufc1980]

3 different types of Shooting stuff? That's your non-violent purposes?

I like how you recap and just say: non-violent purposes given, tick, argument won.

I also liked your wee alcohol skit. It's a poison- it harms people! Aye, very good.

Does it concern you that you appear to be alone in this issue? You're obviously an alias but that would still concern me. When everyone else except pumped up wee boys that want to look hard is on the other side of the argument then maybe it's time to reevaluate.

Yeah, definitely gonna leave it here.

- So shooting itself is a violent act.. Alright

- It's a recap, what exactly do you expect? The thread exists for people to go back and observe what unfolded

- Yeah, about as hysterical as the anti-gun nut attitude towards guns, right. Nice bit of satire for you.

I'm not alone on the issue, this type of thought remains deeply unpopular in the UK though, I'm not surprised many working class people (I'm in fact working class before I get accused of being "classist", but I know what we tend to be like) on a football forum would stubbornly cling to what they've been led to believe.

However people capable of thinking independently and critically will perhaps see this one day and it will likely change their attitude towards draconian gun control (assuming it needs changed).

[Fotbawmad]

I know people in this thread keep asking why the "guns are designed to kill" argument has long been discredited. Hopefully, this video will summarize why.

[welshbairn]

Well that was dull. We find out it's unfair to compare US gun deaths/ownership with our own, but it's fine to do so with the Czech Republic. And that the guns they were using when the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution was written were a bit shit, and much less dangerous than the ones gun lovers want us all to have today. Is he working for the anti gun lobby?

[dufc1980]

"Australia has had no massacres since Porth Arthur and their gun ban" - Jim Jeffries

FALSE


2000 - Childers Arson Attack - 15 killed, unknown injured (Arson)
2009 - Churchill Arson Attack - 10 killed, unknown injured (Arson)
2009 - Lin Family Massacre - 5 killed, unknown injured (Hammer)
2011 - Quakers Hill Arson Attack - 11 killed, 20 injured (Arson)
2014 - Hunt Family Massacre - 5 killed, 0 injured (Firearm)
2014 - Cairns Child Massacre - 8 killed (all children), 1 injured (Knife)

[welshbairn]

Well found! Though I'm curious why Australia is relevant when America isn't. Anyhoos, here's the top 25 for America!

32 killed - April 16, 2007 - Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia. A gunman, 23-year-old student Seung-Hui Cho, goes on a shooting spree killing 32 people in two locations and wounds an undetermined number of others on campus. The shooter, Seung-Hui Cho then committed suicide.

27 killed - December 14, 2012 - Sandy Hook Elementary School - Newtown, Connecticut. Adam Lanza, 20, guns down 20 children, ages 6 and 7, and six adults, school staff and faculty, before turning the gun on himself. Investigating police later find Nancy Lanza, Adam's mother, dead from a gunshot wound. The final count is 28 dead, including the shooter.

23 killed - October 16, 1991 - In Killeen, Texas, 35-year-old George Hennard crashes his pickup truck through the wall of a Lubys Cafeteria. After exiting the truck, Hennard shoots and kills 23 people. He then commits suicide.

21 killed - July 18, 1984 - In San Ysidro, California, 41-year-old James Huberty, armed with a long-barreled Uzi, a pump-action shotgun and a handgun shoots and kills 21 adults and children at a local McDonalds. A police sharpshooter kills Huberty one hour after the rampage begins.

18 killed - August 1, 1966 - In Austin, Texas, Charles Joseph Whitman, a former U.S. Marine, kills 16 and wounds at least 30 while shooting from a University of Texas tower. Police officers Ramiro Martinez and Houston McCoy shot and killed Whitman in the tower. Whitman had also killed his mother and wife earlier in the day.

14 killed - August 20, 1986 - Edmond, Oklahoma part-time mail carrier, Patrick Henry Sherrill, armed with three handguns kills 14 postal workers in ten minutes and then takes his own life with a bullet to the head.

13 killed - November 5, 2009 - Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan kills 13 people and injures 32 at Fort Hood, Texas, during a shooting rampage. He is convicted and sentenced to death.

13 killed - April 3, 2009 - In Binghamton, New York, Jiverly Wong kills 13 people and injures four during a shooting at an immigrant community center. He then kills himself.

13 killed - April 20, 1999 - Columbine High School - Littleton, Colorado. 18-year-old Eric Harris and 17-year-old Dylan Klebold kill 12 fellow students and one teacher before committing suicide in the school library.

13 killed - September 25, 1982 - In Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, 40-year-old George Banks, a prison guard, kills 13 people including five of his own children. In September 2011, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court overturns his death sentence stating that Banks is mentally incompetent.

13 killed - September 5, 1949 - In Camden, New Jersey, 28-year-old Howard Unruh, a veteran of World War II, shoots and kills 13 people as he walks down Camden's 32nd Street. His weapon of choice is a German-crafted Luger pistol. He is found insane and is committed to a state mental institution. He dies at the age of 88.

12 killed - September 16, 2013 - Shots are fired inside the Washington Navy Yard killing 12. The shooter, identified as Aaron Alexis, 34, is also killed.

12 killed - July 20, 2012 - Twelve people are killed and 58 are wounded in a shooting at an Aurora, Colorado, movie theater screening of the new Batman film. James E. Holmes, 24, is taken into custody outside of the movie theater. The gunman is dressed head-to-toe in protective tactical gear, set off two devices of some kind before spraying the theater with bullets from an AR-15 rifle, a 12-gauge shotgun and at least one of two .40-caliber handguns police recovered at the scene.

12 killed - July 29, 1999 - In Atlanta, 44-year-old Mark Barton kills his wife and two children at his home. He then opens fire in two different brokerage houses killing nine people and wounding 12. He later kills himself.

10 killed - March 10, 2009 - In Alabama, Michael McLendon of Kinston, kills 10 and himself. The dead include his mother, grandparents, aunt and uncle.

9 killed - March 21, 2005 - Red Lake High School, Red Lake, Minnesota. 16-year-old Jeff Weise kills his grandfather and another adult, five students, a teacher and a security officer. He then kills himself.

9 killed - June 18, 1990 - In Jacksonville, Florida, 42-year-old James Pough, angry about his car being repossessed, opens fire at at a General Motors Acceptance Corp. office, killing nine people. Pough takes his own life.

8 killed - October 12, 2011 - Eight people are killed during a shooting at the Salon Meritage in Seal Beach, California. The suspect, Scott Evans Dekraai, 41, of Huntington Beach, is arrested without incident as he is trying to leave the scene. The eight dead include Dekraai's ex-wife, Michelle Fournier, 48. He was armed with three guns -- a 9 mm Springfield, a Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum, and a Heckler & Koch .45 -- and was wearing body armor during the shooting rampage.

8 killed - August 3, 2010 - Manchester, Connecticut - Omar Thornton kills eight co-workers at Hartford Distributors before turning the gun on himself. Thornton had been asked to resign for stealing and selling alcoholic beverages.

8 killed - January 19, 2010 - Christopher Speight, 39, kills eight people at a house in Appomattox, Virginia. He surrenders to police at the scene the next morning, and is charged with one count of murder with additional charges pending.

8 killed - March 29, 2009 - In Carthage, North Carolina, 45-year-old Robert Stewart kills a nurse and seven elderly patients at a nursing home. In May, the Moore County district attorney announces she will seek the death penalty. On September 3, 2011, a jury finds Stewart guilty of second-degree murder. Stewart is sentenced to 141 to 179 years in prison.

8 killed - December 5, 2007 - In Omaha, Nebraska, 19-year-old Robert Hawkins goes to an area mall and kills eight shoppers before killing himself.

8 killed - July 1, 1993 - In San Francisco, 55-year-old Gian Luigi Ferri kills eight people in a law office and then kills himself.

8 killed - September 14, 1989 - In Louisville, Kentucky, 47-year-old Joseph Wesbecker armed with a AK-47 semiautomatic assault rifle, two MAC-11 semiautomatic pistols, a .38 caliber handgun, a 9-millimeter semiautomatic pistol and a bayonet kills eight co-workers at Standard Gravure Corporation and then kills himself. He had been placed on disability leave from his job due to mental problems.

8 killed - August 20, 1982 - In Miami, 51-year-old history teacher Carl Robert Brown, angry about a repair bill and armed with a shotgun, kills eight people at a machine shop. He flees by bicycle, but is shot in the back by a witness who pursued him. He was on leave from school for psychological treatment.

[dufc1980]

Well found! Though I'm curious why Australia is relevant when America isn't. Anyhoos, here's the top 25 for America!

Well why would America be relevant when directly responding to a statement about Australia?

Do you want to see statistics for massacres in the UK (excluding Northern Ireland for obvious reasons) over the years?

Want to know how many took place before Hungerford (when gun control really began to get tightened)?

Wait there, I'll post the figures, you're going to be pretty surprised by this.

[welshbairn]

Well why would America be relevant when directly responding to a statement about Australia?

Do you want to see statistics for massacres in the UK (excluding Northern Ireland for obvious reasons) over the years?

Want to know how many took place before Hungerford (when gun control really began to get tightened)?

Wait there, I'll post the figures, you're going to be pretty surprised by this.

Can't wait! Are they a bit like America, or more like Australia?

P.S. It will have to wait till tomorrow. I'd imagine the rate of loonies running around shooting people hasn't changed very much since there weren't that many guns around before the tightening of the rules. Bet you're going to use Doctor Shipman to spice up your figures though!

[dufc1980]

(1966) Shepherd's Bush - 3 killed, 0 injured (Firearm)


Oh dear, let's look at Hungeford and beyond:


(1987) Hungerford Massacre - 16 killed, 15 injured (Firearm)


Fairly strict gun control brought in:


(1996) Dunblane Massacre - 18 killed, 15 injured (Firearm)


Gun control made even stricter


(2010) Cumbria Massacre - 12 killed, 11 injured (Firearm)


Hmm.. Doesn't seem to be adding up here.

[dufc1980]

You could also include the London Bombings I guess, figures are as follows:

(2005) London Bombings - 52 killed, 700+ injured (Improvised Explosives)


Hold on, you mean to tell me people can create explosive devices with over the counter goods?

Oh dear.

[dufc1980]

Can't wait! Are they a bit like America, or more like Australia?

A bit like the UK, really.

[dufc1980]

Can't wait! Are they a bit like America, or more like Australia?

P.S. It will have to wait till tomorrow. I'd imagine the rate of loonies running around shooting people hasn't changed very much since there weren't that many guns around before the tightening of the rules. Bet you're going to use Doctor Shipman to spice up your figures though!

Are you alright? Like are you all there I mean, mentally?

Are you even looking at the massacres I'm referencing and the way they're being commited? Anyone with the most basic level of intelligence would be capable of looking at those figures and going:

"Right, clearly gun control has utterly failed to stop deadly masscres occuring regularly in countries where they were prevalent to begin with (Austrlia)"

"However with UK stats we see that despite not having strict gun control for almost an entire century before a knee jerk response to a deadly massacre with firearms the UK only seen one other massacre which was the shooting of 3 police officers. In addition to this since bringing in fairly strict gun control the UK has seen two deadly mass murders both commited (ironically) with firearms."

"So ironically the rate of massacres in the UK has only increased since the introduction of strict gun control."

Massacre to you still simply equals somebody opening fire on people, clearly.

Your point about gun availability is COMPLETELY irrelevant when it comes to historical massacres in the UK. A gun is NOT the only thing you can effectively commit a massacre with.

[pandarilla]

Is it easier, or more difficult, for unhinged people to commit mass murder when guns are prevalent in society?

[dufc1980]

Is it easier, or more difficult, for unhinged people to commit mass murder when guns are prevalent in society?

Neither, as evidenced by recent deadly massacres in Australia and the methods used.

Guns are simply another method for doing so, far less effective than improvised explosive devices and as effective or arguably less so than cars and arson.

[dufc1980]

Now I've said I was leaving twice already, this time I definitely will be.

This is about as high a point as it gets, even I was somewhat shocked looking at historical massacres and the effect (or total lack thereof) gun control has had at curbing them, particularly with Australia.

So I'm going to take my leave, it can only be down towards the gutter from here really, and I won't allow myself to be dragged there. If the UK wants its borderline police state it can absolutely have it, I'll be taking myself elsewhere the first opportunity that comes my way.

Best of luck to the pro-gun or even neutral people of the forum trying to have a conversation with these knuckleheads in the future, I don't have the energy for it.

[Half Rice Half Chips]

Pro-gun advocates are utter red neck cretins.