The Arbroath Thread

[1320Lichtie]

12 minutes ago, keptie said:

Still won't happen unless some mega rich Red LIchtie fan bankrolled us.

I don’t think so and don’t necessarily even want FT - but like others have said there are quite a few clubs in a poorer place than we are in regards to numerous things off the park but they make it work. Will just have to see what happens. I’m enjoying the way we operate just now and think it’s optimum. 

[Tattie36]

4 hours ago, keptie said:

Arbroath going full time is pie in the sky, will never  happen.

If we got to the Premiership we would have to. Sounds ridiculous but we were pretty much 10 minutes away from it two seasons ago.

Anyone who thinks any team could play or even remotely compete in the Premiership while being part-time is aff their nut… well you could play a season but it would be 6-0 pumpings every week. No point getting to the top league to not even try to stay there.

We would probably average the same or more than e.g. Livi so it would definitely be possible. Obviously there are huge logistical issues but it’s possible.

[keptie]

5 minutes ago, Tattie36 said:

If we got to the Premiership we would have to. Sounds ridiculous but we were pretty much 10 minutes away from it two seasons ago.

Anyone who thinks any team could play or even remotely compete in the Premiership while being part-time is aff their nut… well you could play a season but it would be 6-0 pumpings every week. No point getting to the top league to not even try to stay there.

We would probably average the same or more than e.g. Livi so it would definitely be possible. Obviously there are huge logistical issues but it’s possible.

It's possible we could win the champions league but it ain't gonna happen. I could never in my lifetime envisage us going full time, it would end in disaster.

[ecto]

On 10/10/2023 at 19:27, ExiledLichtie said:

 

Alloa with their rich Tory?  Kelty?  Raith?  Inverness for years?  Morton under Rae?  Many clubs have someone who is chucking in a bit of money.

Kelty not any longer, is their benefactor not now involved at Raith, who themselves until the takeover according to football finance expert  Kieran Maguire were insolvent, not sure the Morton fans look back at Rae’s time in charge as good times, Inverness probably benefited greatly from being in the top flight, even earning half a million from getting to the cup final, they haven’t got a pot to piss in, as for Alloa’s rich Tory, if he is as rich as you think, why are they not where we are?

so, I stick to my point about Cove, but in you’re psychotic desire to be proven right, am sure you will come back with more 

[Tattie36]

4 hours ago, SotesBornalichtie said:

Have you fully considered the implications of going full time? It's not just about putting 11 full time players on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon and paying them the £10 odd hourly minimum wage.

How about the management, coaching and medical staff, would they have to be full time? How about the increased cost of training facilities for more than twice a week training.

Ticket prices would have to go up. We have a small capacity ground, would we even fill it for every home game to generate maximum income from ticket sales? Even with money from the league we might not do much more than break even or possibly start on the slippery slope of going into debt.

I would guess that there are much more costs behind the scenes and cannot see an option for going full time.

 

 

 

 

 

You’ve just cherry picked a tiny part of what I said.  I never said we should go full-time but I do think there are certain circumstances where it would have to be looked at seriously. Obviously promotion to the Premiership then it would be a given but also it has to at least be talked about if we plan on being in the Championship for the long haul.

I could be wrong but I think the only other part-time team, in the modern era, that have spent as long in the second tier as we have was Dumbarton a few years back. There’s a reason why, broadly speaking, the teams at the top of Scottish football are full-time and the teams at the bottom are part-time. There has to be a point where it becomes inevitable if a team wants to continue as part of the “elite”.

Of course it’s not a simple case of deciding to go full-time and it happening overnight but many of the teams I listed have smaller or similar supports, probably equal or lower turnover/sponsorship/commercial activities etc and definitely much larger debt.

I don’t mind us being part-time at all and it seems to be working at the moment but there has to be a tipping point. History has proven that part-time teams have a limited shelf life at this level.

[Tattie36]

3 minutes ago, keptie said:

It's possible we could win the champions league but it ain't gonna happen. I could never in my lifetime envisage us going full time, it would end in disaster.

Horses for courses. Airdrie for one have dipped in and out of full-time/part-time over the years.

Going full-time doesn’t have to be permanent. the only way I would see it for us is if we did go up as it would be stupid not to, or if we find ourselves still competing well in the Championship in, say, 5 years time, AND we’re in a good place financially etc.

[AFC360PUNK1320]

If there was a vote tomorrow by the club to its shareholders/season ticket holders (which i am both of) to stay as we are or go full-time i would vote to stay as we are.

We are the BEST run club in the country never mind just the best part-time club and imo it is too much of a risk.

Look at TOB and Slater (amongst others) it suits them to be part-time for various reasons so if we went full-time we would lose them, hopefully in our current status we remain an established Championship club or at least one that stays in the Championship more seasons than not.

I would hate to go full-time then things go "ti##-up" then we are up "sh##-creek".

[ecto]

5 hours ago, keptie said:

Arbroath going full time is pie in the sky, will never  happen.

I have watched Arbroath for 50+ years, in that time, many clubs have gone from part-time to full-time, very few, if any, are further forward, in fact the only thing they are, is financially worse off, this, I hope, is what our board see

[SimonLichtie]

This full time chat needs to stop immediately - I am on the verge of writing my full time v part time essay, and I really can't be arsed as I've done it before and nothing has changed

There is absolutely no business case whatsoever for Arbroath FC to be a full time football club. Quoting other insolvent/ debt ridden/ loss making full time football clubs and saying 'if they can why can't we' is ridiculous. As a business adviser and a sad b*****d, I (should ) have a good understanding of these things and everytime this chat comes up it gives me the fear.

On 09/10/2023 at 20:09, Tattie36 said:

If Cove, Accies, Ayr, Morton, Raith, ICT and Airdrie can be full-time then I can’t see why we couldn’t be.

Have you ever looked into any of these teams finances?

Cove are funded by an individual and lose hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. They are currently shite, yet their outgoings will be higher than ours this season and they'll make a six figure loss which said individual will cover with a directors loan. They are technically insolvent, with large debts owed.

Hamilton are technically insolvent (you might see a pattern emerge here with these clubs who can supposedly be full time) and they owe around 1 million out in loans guaranteed by directors. They are also partly propped up by having a superb youth academy which has seen them receive 6 figure fees for guys like Gabriel Forsyth, Ryan One and Josh McDonald this season.

Ayr United? This is quite easy - direct quote from their chairman from when their last accounts were published - 'This is the first time in 19 years that the club is reporting a positive balance sheet and that is a real sign of the progress being made.'. All they had to do was the classic accounting trick of having their assets re-evaluated to make up 360k from no-where in order to make the balance sheet look positive instead of negative  Essentially they have run at a loss for 20 years.

Greenock Morton owe literally multiple millions of pounds to one individual benefactor family. In 2020 this amount was 2.7 million pounds. The Rae family only became involved with Morton in 2002. That is a significent loss to be making over that period of time.

Raith Rovers have, on average, made a £150k loss every season since 2005. Essentially they lose around 1.5 million pounds every decade as things stand.

Inverness..... this is actually the worst by some distance. They lost 835k in their last reported financial year, and on the same accounts they reported net liabilities of 1.7 million pounds. Their cup run last season which would've netted them hundreds of thousand of pounds? All used to pay off a smallish percentage of the directors loans which are propping the entire club up.

Airdrie - I don't know enough about to make a proper comment to be honest and would need to do a bit of digging to do so.

The above is really only scratching the surface with the basic figures, however the basic facts all show that every club mentioned are insolvent, laden with debt and/ or relying on one or two individuals to bankroll the club. If the aspiration is to go full time and emulate any of those mentioned above, then I'm out  This is without even discussing quality of player, hugely increased fixed variable costs etc. There is no business case whatsoever for Arbroath FC to be full time - the only situation it would be possible in would be if we became entirely reliant on one individual to bankroll things with no guarantee of success, and the potential of ending up in a worse position on the park and a guarantee of being miles worse off it.

I'll leave it there - but honestly I could write a book on this  Long story short - based on the factual information we have on the balance sheets and on the park, Arbroath FC being full time would result in large financial losses and absolutely no guarantee of actually being any better whatsoever on the park, and a decent chance of us actually being worse.

[TASC_1878]

Ned Doig

With Scotland on the cusp of qualification for Euro 24 let’s have a look at Arbroath’s first ever full internationalist. John Edward Doig (better known as Ned) represented Scotland on 6 occasions, 2 of which occurred when he was on the books at Gayfield. The Goalkeeper made his international debut against Ireland in 1887. Ned was inducted into the Arbroath FC Hall of Fame in 2015.

To find out more about Ned and his career visit the Arbroath FC Archive on the link below  

https://arbroatharchive.co.uk/player.php?id=249

[Dunning1874]

10 minutes ago, SimonLichtie said:

Greenock Morton owe literally multiple millions of pounds to one individual benefactor family. In 2020 this amount was 2.7 million pounds. The Rae family only became involved with Morton in 2002. That is a significent loss to be making over that period of time.

Morton are fan-owned, debt free, have broken even at worst since becoming fan-owned and will do so again this season.

I do broadly agree with your point that there's not much to gain in a full-time switch for Arbroath. It would give you a higher ceiling but there's still no guarantee of actually improving in doing so, with huge potential downsides.

With all the other clubs overspending as you point out, Morton living within our means has consistently meant having the smallest or one of the smallest budgets in the division - certainly last season it was smaller than Arbroath - and being full-time while doing so means you're effectively at the bottom of the barrel for full-time players, with even the League One full-time sides comfortably outspending us. It does mean you're shopping in a market that Arbroath don't have access to with players who want to stay full-time, but that's a double edged sword.

Sure, Morton can sign some players Arbroath can't who want to be full-time footballers and theoretically you'll maybe get some players with a higher ceiling that way with younger guys who believe they can still play their way to a higher level, but Arbroath are the best (and after the growth in crowds and improvements off the field along with Ayr going wholly full-time, the biggest) part-time club in the country. That allows access to a whole market Morton can't get to either, particularly for more experienced players who have no interest in going full-time. You go full-time and you lose players like O'Brien and McKenna who aren't going to leave their jobs at this stage of their careers.

If you're going to be spending the exact same amount in wages anyway, it's very much up for debate whether players willing to accept that money for the status of being full-time without another wage to supplement it are going to be better. There's definitely an overlap in quality between the poorer full-time players and better part-timers and you might lose as much as you gain. Clearly there's some sporting advantage to full-time footballers but the gap in fitness has obviously considerably narrowed as well, and Arbroath having as good a season two years ago as any of the smaller full-time clubs have had is further proof that the theoretical higher ceiling with full-time players isn't always going to be reached.

I'd be happy enough to see Morton going hybrid for the best of both worlds. Obviously that can also go wrong if you end up still getting the dregs of full-time football rather than finding the gems among cheaper players while not getting the best part-timers either, but that's just the pitfalls of football recruitment regardless of the employment status of your players.

[SimonLichtie]

12 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Morton are fan-owned, debt free, have broken even at worst since becoming fan-owned and will do so again this season.

Very good post  

The quoted bit - I completely forgot that to be honest and only looked at things up until 2020  If I remember correctly Crawford Rae essentially wrote the debt off when the club was given to the fans, and since then you've broken even as you can't afford not too? That being the case, it'll be really interested to see in the mid/ long term how well Morton do as a break even full time club with comparatively low incomings.

Of course it doesn't change the fact that the 'success' of the 2000s and 2010s essentially cost millions of pounds that the club wouldn't have been able to afford if it wasn't for the Rae family. Also interesting to note that if you look at the years of biggish losses and compare them to the last few years of breaking even, you've not actually been significently worse on the pitch?

Edited October 12, 2023 by SimonLichtie

[clashcityrocker]

If it's not broken don't fix it - so no need to go full time.

Can we win promotion to the Premier League - yes, but chances like this come along every 40 years !

A part time club will eventually win The Championship and I would like it to be us - creating some history and a moment of something very special  - we came so close two seasons ago.

We are going through a golden period - we have a quality squad who have a decent chance  of making the play offs  - but will need a replacement for Hylton in January (unless he has a rethink and decides to stay).

Let the good times roll and should we ever win the Championship we can revisit the topic of going full time.

 

 

 

[Dunning1874]

1 hour ago, SimonLichtie said:

Very good post  

The quoted bit - I completely forgot that to be honest and only looked at things up until 2020  If I remember correctly Crawford Rae essentially wrote the debt off when the club was given to the fans, and since then you've broken even as you can't afford not too? That being the case, it'll be really interested to see in the mid/ long term how well Morton do as a break even full time club with comparatively low incomings.

Of course it doesn't change the fact that the 'success' of the 2000s and 2010s essentially cost millions of pounds that the club wouldn't have been able to afford if it wasn't for the Rae family. Also interesting to note that if you look at the years of biggish losses and compare them to the last few years of breaking even, you've not actually been significently worse on the pitch?

Yeah, the debt was written off. Not in entirely amicable terms as we had to seriously fight for Crawford Rae not taking the stadium with him, but getting out of that with a debt free club still owning Cappielow was not an easy feat.

Breaking even is essential, there's simply no other option and seeing the debt we were in previously it's absolutely the right thing to do. There's between £150-200K raised annually through MCT membership which is passed to the club, but think the vast majority of that goes to running costs rather than being held back to cover losses. While as a fan I always want the easiest cup draw possible, away ties at Parkhead and Ibrox have done us a big favour.

We're really no worse on the pitch for it so far with 7th and 5th place finishes to date being entirely normal for Morton, but how much of this is down to Imrie remains to be seen. There's the two sides of it where you wonder where we might have been if we'd been able to give him a better budget and you wonder how bad we'd be if someone like Johansson was in charge with this budget, so it'll be interesting to see where we are whenever he leaves.

I would say on the comparison to the likes of Raith and Ayr, they do at least differ to some extent from Morton's spending under the Raes in that they seem to be doing a lot in terms of spending on infrastructure along with their first team spending, so there's actually a process towards being more sustainable there even if it's not actually going to cover their first team expenditure any time soon, whereas at Morton it was entirely being spunked on the first team. Again though, bringing it back to Arbroath, you've managed to make that investment off the field without needing to make a loss to do so with the prize money from finishing second.

[Tattie36]

4 hours ago, SimonLichtie said:

This full time chat needs to stop immediately - I am on the verge of writing my full time v part time essay, and I really can't be arsed as I've done it before and nothing has changed

There is absolutely no business case whatsoever for Arbroath FC to be a full time football club. Quoting other insolvent/ debt ridden/ loss making full time football clubs and saying 'if they can why can't we' is ridiculous. As a business adviser and a sad b*****d, I (should ) have a good understanding of these things and everytime this chat comes up it gives me the fear.

Have you ever looked into any of these teams finances?

Cove are funded by an individual and lose hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. They are currently shite, yet their outgoings will be higher than ours this season and they'll make a six figure loss which said individual will cover with a directors loan. They are technically insolvent, with large debts owed.

Hamilton are technically insolvent (you might see a pattern emerge here with these clubs who can supposedly be full time) and they owe around 1 million out in loans guaranteed by directors. They are also partly propped up by having a superb youth academy which has seen them receive 6 figure fees for guys like Gabriel Forsyth, Ryan One and Josh McDonald this season.

Ayr United? This is quite easy - direct quote from their chairman from when their last accounts were published - 'This is the first time in 19 years that the club is reporting a positive balance sheet and that is a real sign of the progress being made.'. All they had to do was the classic accounting trick of having their assets re-evaluated to make up 360k from no-where in order to make the balance sheet look positive instead of negative  Essentially they have run at a loss for 20 years.

Greenock Morton owe literally multiple millions of pounds to one individual benefactor family. In 2020 this amount was 2.7 million pounds. The Rae family only became involved with Morton in 2002. That is a significent loss to be making over that period of time.

Raith Rovers have, on average, made a £150k loss every season since 2005. Essentially they lose around 1.5 million pounds every decade as things stand.

Inverness..... this is actually the worst by some distance. They lost 835k in their last reported financial year, and on the same accounts they reported net liabilities of 1.7 million pounds. Their cup run last season which would've netted them hundreds of thousand of pounds? All used to pay off a smallish percentage of the directors loans which are propping the entire club up.

Airdrie - I don't know enough about to make a proper comment to be honest and would need to do a bit of digging to do so.

The above is really only scratching the surface with the basic figures, however the basic facts all show that every club mentioned are insolvent, laden with debt and/ or relying on one or two individuals to bankroll the club. If the aspiration is to go full time and emulate any of those mentioned above, then I'm out  This is without even discussing quality of player, hugely increased fixed variable costs etc. There is no business case whatsoever for Arbroath FC to be full time - the only situation it would be possible in would be if we became entirely reliant on one individual to bankroll things with no guarantee of success, and the potential of ending up in a worse position on the park and a guarantee of being miles worse off it.

I'll leave it there - but honestly I could write a book on this  Long story short - based on the factual information we have on the balance sheets and on the park, Arbroath FC being full time would result in large financial losses and absolutely no guarantee of actually being any better whatsoever on the park, and a decent chance of us actually being worse.

Again, I feel I’m being selectively quoted to make it look like I’m advocating full-time football for Arbroath.

I’m on record here many times saying that I don’t think we should be, pretty much for the reasons you state.

However I do think, again I have said here, that there could be very specific situations in future where it would have to be seriously looked at. Namely promotion to the Premiership or a very long term stay in the Championship with serious annual ambitions for promotion coupled with healthy attendances and a very strong financial position. Even then it couldn’t be just for the sake of it and would have to be approached with caution.

I’m also on record as saying that Cove being full-time is insane and could well end in a Gretna type situation for them.

FWIW I think more full-time teams will be going part-time or hybrid in future as it’s just not sustainable for many of them.

[ExiledLichtie]

Did Morton not have to do a. emergency budget slashing in the summer?

[lichtie23]

Would like to see Ali Adams get the start in goal tomorrow. Has impressed me in the limited playing time he has had this season. Possesses really good distribution as well as a commanding voice at the back 

[ecto]

In the season 74/75, prior to the first incarnation of a premier league, out of a league of 18, top flight clubs, by my reckoning half were part time, think only 3 remain part time, Dumbarton, Clyde and us

[keptie]

I wonder how the Hammy rehab is going? Maybe get some minutes today if the game is going well.

[Lichtie78]

Just seen that one of our pre-season trialists, Dayshonne Golding (aka man bun) has ended up in the highland league on loan from Cove.