All things Dundee FC

[Boo Khaki]

If you are playing 3 CB the guy in the centre needs to be a lump, hence Shaughnessy. McPake did this as well with Jordon Forster, that didn't work out due to the player, and none of our other CB's were able to make it work until we got Berra on loan.

Faced with two forwards, the fact there is only one central CB puts a lot of onus on him having to be utterly dominant in the air to cut out supply to those two guys. Different when it's just one forward player, or you are playing a four with two CB's who can pick up a man each, because they can then decide between them which forward poses the most difficult physical challenge and allocate responsibility, but when it's 1 v 2 then the lone Central CB has to be able to dominate either forward, and because he theoretically has responsibility for more area directly in front of the goal due to the lack of a partner, he needs to be dominant in the air, a near certainty to get his head first to anything that gets piled in there, and a lump who doesn't get bullied when he jumps.

I've never seen a 3CB system that works well long-term without a big, strong guy in the middle. Shaughnessy is the only CB we have who meets that profile. The only other guy close is on loan in the Championship, but Ashcroft is too immobile. Portales would get bodied playing in the middle of a 3. He's the perfect wide CB for that formation, but totally unsuited to the centre.

Mind when it was aw the rage in the 90's? Craig Broon played Colin Hendry there, the Germans always had an enormous lump in the middle for the same reasons. Football has changed, but not that aspect of it.

Edited April 6 by Boo Khaki

[Luke Newman]

15 minutes ago, Fifespud said:

I think the criticism of Big Joe is a bit over the top tbh. Donnelly was easily our worst player today. We were thin on the bench today with Main and Mulligan out. Lamie (although I’m not his greatest fan) starts over Donnelly when fit. More worrying is lack of game time for Astley. Have we paid money for a dud?

Donnelly is much better than Lamie. Perhaps he didn’t play as good without a natural wing back closer to him.

[peebles_Dee]

17 minutes ago, Fifespud said:

I think the criticism of Big Joe is a bit over the top tbh. Donnelly was easily our worst player today. We were thin on the bench today with Main and Mulligan out. Lamie (although I’m not his greatest fan) starts over Donnelly when fit. More worrying is lack of game time for Astley. Have we paid money for a dud?

I think it's difficult to introduce centre backs compared to other positions. He's still young so will get his chance soon.

[peebles_Dee]

16 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

If you are playing 3 CB the guy in the centre needs to be a lump, hence Shaughnessy. McPake did this as well with Jordon Forster, that didn't work out due to the player, and none of our other CB's were able to make it work until we got Berra on loan.

Faced with two forwards, the fact there is only one central CB puts a lot of onus on him having to be utterly dominant in the air to cut out supply to those two guys. Different when it's just one forward player, or you are playing a four with two CB's who can pick up a man each, because they can then decide between them which forward poses the most difficult physical challenge and allocate responsibility, but when it's 1 v 2 then the lone Central CB has to be able to dominate either forward, and because he theoretically has responsibility for more area directly in front of the goal due to the lack of a partner, he needs to be dominant in the air, a near certainty to get his head first to anything that gets piled in there, and a lump who doesn't get bullied when he jumps.

I've never seen a 3CB system that works well long-term without a big, strong guy in the middle. Shaughnessy is the only CB we have who meets that profile. The only other guy close is on loan in the Championship, but Ashcroft is too immobile. Portales would get bodied playing in the middle of a 3. He's the perfect wide CB for that formation, but totally unsuited to the centre.

Mind when it was aw the rage in the 90's? Craig Broon played Colin Hendry there, the Germans always had an enormous lump in the middle for the same reasons. Football has changed, but not that aspect of it.

It's only a problem not having a big lump when we've not got the ball. Playing McGhee, Portales and Donnelly would work fine in my opinion as if it goes over Portales/McGhee we have 2 quick centre backs to cover in behind. The 3 I mentioned are better on the ball and make a positive impact. We have changed our style of play to a slow build up and dictating play. Once we through our style of play out the window and get dominated and Shaughnessy get easily turned. The new style of play has worked but hasn't worked as much for Beck. Putting McGhee at CB means we are defensively weak at wing back but Boateng and Sylla are athletic to cover space in behind. All our goals haven't been through strikers winning it in the air it has been through getting turned or giving opponents time and space on the ball. Need to have 90minute performances.

[Boo Khaki]

31 minutes ago, peebles_Dee said:

It's only a problem not having a big lump when we've not got the ball. Playing McGhee, Portales and Donnelly would work fine in my opinion as if it goes over Portales/McGhee we have 2 quick centre backs to cover in behind. The 3 I mentioned are better on the ball and make a positive impact. We have changed our style of play to a slow build up and dictating play. Once we through our style of play out the window and get dominated and Shaughnessy get easily turned. The new style of play has worked but hasn't worked as much for Beck. Putting McGhee at CB means we are defensively weak at wing back but Boateng and Sylla are athletic to cover space in behind. All our goals haven't been through strikers winning it in the air it has been through getting turned or giving opponents time and space on the ball. Need to have 90minute performances.

I agree with you about the goals we're conceding, but from my perspective that's being caused by the midfield. We can't compete. The ball gets passed from sideline to sideline and back again through 7 or 8 players and we don't get near any of them. We drop deeper and deeper, the opponent has as much possession as they like in our final third, and it's only a matter of time before one of the CB's loses his guy, gets turned etc.

We'd be a lot less vulnerable if we

1. Had a bit more of the ball. Or any of it, in fact.

2. Were able to begin defending a bit further up the pitch

3. Were in any way capable of just holding on to the ball for 30 seconds or so to get out, slow the game down, and take the heat out of the situation

4. Our WB's didn't immediately drop back into a 5 and leave the the 3 in midfield completely overwhelmed

All of these things are Midfield issues. The solutions IMO are first of all -

1. Take a fucking forward off and put Boateng next to Sylla so each player in midfield has slightly less lateral ground to try and cover.

2. Consider going to back 4 so the WB's don't have to drop and leave the wide parts of the field empty, this would facilitate playing 5 across the middle of the pitch if you really wanted. It seems counter-intuitive to take off a defender when trying to defend, but football isn't as simple as more defenders = fewer goals, more forwards = more goals, although heaven knows plenty of fans seem to believe it is.

3. Accept that even if McCowan and Cameron are willing to work hard, neither is a tone setter defensively, neither is going to clatter into someone and come out with the ball, so it's perfectly ok to sub one of them for a midfielder with a bit more dig if we are trying to hold a game.

The fact Joe S is a big haddie really isn't a problem in my view, because that's exactly what the ideal player in his position should be. He doesn't need to be great on the ball because the two guys either side of him are the ones who bring it forward. When we play out of the back it's usually Portales who ends up with the ball on the half-way line. Even JS is perfectly capable of playing a 10 yard sideways pass to Portales.

All of the things I've listed above are cumulative, in the sense that doing one of them should make each of the others slightly easier and more frequent, but it all begins and ends with more bodies in Midfield. While it's just McCowan, Cameron, and Sylla trying to play against 6 or 7 guys, we have a string of 5 playing across the edge of our box, and Bak and Tiffoney standing doing nothing on the half-way line, this stuff where we don't see the ball for hours on end and put up with wave after wave of opponent attacks is just going to continue. We have no control of the game in these circumstances, because Docherty is doing nothing to actually provide the players with an opportunity to take control. Once it goes 2-1, 2-2, the momentum and belief is entirely with the opponent, and it we never get it back, hence why the roof caves in.

Just one other wee thing re the goals. If you watch how many times we're letting the opponent put crosses into the box because we're so deep, you'll notice that it's usually ineffective, the ball gets cleared no bother, but that's because the 3 with big Joe in the middle is working as it's supposed to in that scenario. Where it's not working is in defending stuff through the middle, but that to me is because of the sheer amount of possession we surrender  in central areas immediately in front of our box. That's a midfield issue.

Edited April 6 by Boo Khaki

[Fifespud]

8 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

I agree with you about the goals we're conceding, but from my perspective that's being caused by the midfield. We can't compete. The ball gets passed from sideline to sideline and back again through 7 or 8 players and we don't get near any of them. We drop deeper and deeper, the opponent has as much possession as they like in our final third, and it's only a matter of time before one of the CB's loses his guy, gets turned etc.

We'd be a lot less vulnerable if we

1. Had a bit more of the ball. Or any of it, in fact.

2. Were able to begin defending a bit further up the pitch

3. Were in any way capable of just holding on to the ball for 30 seconds or so to get out, slow the game down, and take the heat out of the situation

4. Our WB's didn't immediately drop back into a 5 and leave the the 3 in midfield completely overwhelmed

All of these things are Midfield issues. The solutions IMO are first of all -

1. Take a fucking forward off and put Boateng next to Sylla so each player in midfield has slightly less lateral ground to try and cover.

2. Consider going to back 4 so the WB's don't have to drop and leave the wide parts of the field empty, this would facilitate playing 5 across the middle of the pitch if you really wanted. It seems counter-intuitive to take off a defender when trying to defend, but football isn't as simple as more defenders = fewer goals, more forwards = more goals, although heaven knows plenty of fans seem to believe it is.

3. Accept that even if McCowan and Cameron are willing to work hard, neither is a tone setter defensively, neither is going to clatter into someone and come out with the ball, so it's perfectly ok to sub one of them for a midfielder with a bit more dig if we are trying to hold a game.

The fact Joe S is a big haddie really isn't a problem in my view, because that's exactly what the ideal player in his position should be. He doesn't need to be great on the ball because the two guys either side of him are the ones who bring it forward. When we play out of the back it's usually Portales who ends up with the ball on the half-way line. Even JS is perfectly capable of playing a 10 yard sideways pass to Portales.

All of the things I've listed above are cumulative, in the sense that doing one of them should make each of the others slightly easier and more frequent, but it all begins and ends with more bodies in Midfield. While it's just McCowan, Cameron, and Sylla trying to play against 6 or 7 guys, we have a string of 5 playing across the edge of our box, and Bak and Tiffoney standing doing nothing on the half-way line, this stuff where we don't see the ball for hours on end and put up with wave after wave of opponent attacks is just going to continue. We have no control of the game in these circumstances, because Docherty is doing nothing to actually provide the players with an opportunity to take control. Once it goes 2-1, 2-2, the momentum and belief is entirely with the opponent, and it we never get it back, hence why the roof caves in.

Just one other wee thing re the goals. If you watch how many times we're letting the opponent put crosses into the box because we're so deep, you'll notice that it's usually ineffective, the ball gets cleared no bother, but that's because the 3 with big Joe in the middle is working as it's supposed to in that scenario. Where it's not working is in defending stuff through the middle, but that to me is because of the sheer amount of possession we surrender  in central areas immediately in front of our box. That's a midfield issue.

Again you’ve nailed it. I also thought Sylla (who I really like) was slightly off the pace yesterday. Maybe carrying a wee knock - but he wasn’t quite as effective. I was pretty surprised that he wasn’t replaced by, or given help by Boateng. Luke M can do a wee bit of defending but Tiffoney and in particular Cameron contribute very little defensively when the game turns like yesterday’s did. 
Anyway I’m not too disappointed. Best season in at least a decade, it’s been a real pleasure attending most weeks, and it’s clear that with a few sensible additions we could be even better next season. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The equaliser is just comical - why the f**k was McCracken that far out when there were so many defenders?

[Girth]

Keep the spine of the team, sign some ballers over the summer then push for the triple next season. Piece of piss. 

Thank you. 

[peebles_Dee]

2 hours ago, Fifespud said:

Again you’ve nailed it. I also thought Sylla (who I really like) was slightly off the pace yesterday. Maybe carrying a wee knock - but he wasn’t quite as effective. I was pretty surprised that he wasn’t replaced by, or given help by Boateng. Luke M can do a wee bit of defending but Tiffoney and in particular Cameron contribute very little defensively when the game turns like yesterday’s did. 
Anyway I’m not too disappointed. Best season in at least a decade, it’s been a real pleasure attending most weeks, and it’s clear that with a few sensible additions we could be even better next season. 

Our midfield hasn't performed as good against Motherwell this season. Whilst playing possession football that worked the majority of the game, there wasn't anyone free to bounce the ball off to and then drive at goal. There was alos less space for midfield to pick a pass. This is because of the extra man Motherwell had in midfield. Sylla and the others struggled second half debating which Motherwell midfield to close down which let them dominate towards the end.

Edited April 7 by peebles_Dee

[peebles_Dee]

11 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

I agree with you about the goals we're conceding, but from my perspective that's being caused by the midfield. We can't compete. The ball gets passed from sideline to sideline and back again through 7 or 8 players and we don't get near any of them. We drop deeper and deeper, the opponent has as much possession as they like in our final third, and it's only a matter of time before one of the CB's loses his guy, gets turned etc.

We'd be a lot less vulnerable if we

1. Had a bit more of the ball. Or any of it, in fact.

2. Were able to begin defending a bit further up the pitch

3. Were in any way capable of just holding on to the ball for 30 seconds or so to get out, slow the game down, and take the heat out of the situation

4. Our WB's didn't immediately drop back into a 5 and leave the the 3 in midfield completely overwhelmed

All of these things are Midfield issues. The solutions IMO are first of all -

1. Take a fucking forward off and put Boateng next to Sylla so each player in midfield has slightly less lateral ground to try and cover.

2. Consider going to back 4 so the WB's don't have to drop and leave the wide parts of the field empty, this would facilitate playing 5 across the middle of the pitch if you really wanted. It seems counter-intuitive to take off a defender when trying to defend, but football isn't as simple as more defenders = fewer goals, more forwards = more goals, although heaven knows plenty of fans seem to believe it is.

3. Accept that even if McCowan and Cameron are willing to work hard, neither is a tone setter defensively, neither is going to clatter into someone and come out with the ball, so it's perfectly ok to sub one of them for a midfielder with a bit more dig if we are trying to hold a game.

The fact Joe S is a big haddie really isn't a problem in my view, because that's exactly what the ideal player in his position should be. He doesn't need to be great on the ball because the two guys either side of him are the ones who bring it forward. When we play out of the back it's usually Portales who ends up with the ball on the half-way line. Even JS is perfectly capable of playing a 10 yard sideways pass to Portales.

All of the things I've listed above are cumulative, in the sense that doing one of them should make each of the others slightly easier and more frequent, but it all begins and ends with more bodies in Midfield. While it's just McCowan, Cameron, and Sylla trying to play against 6 or 7 guys, we have a string of 5 playing across the edge of our box, and Bak and Tiffoney standing doing nothing on the half-way line, this stuff where we don't see the ball for hours on end and put up with wave after wave of opponent attacks is just going to continue. We have no control of the game in these circumstances, because Docherty is doing nothing to actually provide the players with an opportunity to take control. Once it goes 2-1, 2-2, the momentum and belief is entirely with the opponent, and it we never get it back, hence why the roof caves in.

Just one other wee thing re the goals. If you watch how many times we're letting the opponent put crosses into the box because we're so deep, you'll notice that it's usually ineffective, the ball gets cleared no bother, but that's because the 3 with big Joe in the middle is working as it's supposed to in that scenario. Where it's not working is in defending stuff through the middle, but that to me is because of the sheer amount of possession we surrender  in central areas immediately in front of our box. That's a midfield issue.

Motherwell were rattled yesterday and had no quality but we didn't use that to our advantage and let them have so much time. Docherty has allowed the team to drop off and defend which doesn't work with an attacking based team. We could probally defend higher up the pitch with Boateng and Sylla and allow others to press further up the pitch. The problem with going to a back 4 is that we don't have a defensive full back. When Beck is back we could possibly play a 4 but it doesn't bring the best out of him and who is in front of him. I don't think Joe is a big lump that wins headers. I see him as an organiser for the other 2 on either side. I would sacrifice having Shaughnessy if we managed to close down the crosses or we press better from the front and further up the pitch to decrease the amount of chances the opposition wide men have at creating chances. 

[Boo Khaki]

6 hours ago, Fifespud said:

Again you’ve nailed it. I also thought Sylla (who I really like) was slightly off the pace yesterday. Maybe carrying a wee knock - but he wasn’t quite as effective. I was pretty surprised that he wasn’t replaced by, or given help by Boateng. Luke M can do a wee bit of defending but Tiffoney and in particular Cameron contribute very little defensively when the game turns like yesterday’s did. 
Anyway I’m not too disappointed. Best season in at least a decade, it’s been a real pleasure attending most weeks, and it’s clear that with a few sensible additions we could be even better next season. 

I think Sylla is braw, he has an uncanny knack for being exactly where he needs to be to break up a move and the ball seems to find him like he's a magnet. He never panics in possession, but also never looks like a "lazy" cba player. He's a great calming influence. However... to do his job it really involves him sitting in a specific part of the pitch and not getting dragged out of it. When there are only two other players in the midfield rank, and the ball is getting passed back and forward across the pitch, all three have to shuttle across much more ground to try and challenge for it, and this does seem to lead a wee bit to Sylla getting dragged away from where he really ought to be.

Something similar happens with Scotland when Clarke plays a 3 man mid against better teams. You'll see McGregor, Gilmour, + A.N. Other totally vanish from the game, because they spend most of it getting dragged laterally across the pitch chasing shadows against good passing sides who can move the ball well, and they still never recover the ball, yet just sticking one more guy in there makes all the difference because the entire unit doesn't have to move as far. It "narrows" the pitch when we don't have the ball, for want of a better explanation. What is happening to us is much the same, only it's not really about being outclassed by technically superior sides who move the ball well, it's when we take the lead and then the opponent starts pushing more players forward. It's a simple numbers game re the amount of players in certain areas of the pitch, and Docherty stands and watches us play at a disadvantage for 20-30 minute spells, does nothing to address it, and then expresses frustration at the outcome? I genuinely can't understand it.

 I would never advocate playing Sylla and Boateng together for the purpose of going after teams or trying to win a game, because there isn't a lot of creativity there, but when we are already ahead and wanting to kill a game it's a perfectly decent combo because they are both more than capable of playing a simple, sensible pass to a more creative player. Docherty seems to think it's a strictly one or the other scenario, and it seems he's more or less wedded to the idea that his 5/3/2 can't be altered in any way other than simply replacing players like for like. It's odd, because he doesn't have any issue with playing players in what probably isn't their ideal position, e.g. Costelloe at LWB, Tiffoney as central forward, Mulligan and McGhee at WB, so I don't get why he can't show a similarly flexible approach with regard to switching numbers/formations during a game.

If it's the case that the team spends all week practicing one tactical approach, and he thinks they'll be found out for lack of preparation, then fair enough, but for goodness sake it's surely just good prudence to have a plan A, and at least a Plan B that the players are comfortable and familiar enough with that they know exactly what you have in mind if you switch things mid-match. They are not colossal idiots, they've been playing the game since they were bairns, so I'm sure they must understand what their roles are and how a rank of players has to flex differently if it's a bank of 3, 4, or 5. It's pretty basic stuff.

[Luke Newman]

18 hours ago, peebles_Dee said:

                            McCracken

       McGhee        Portales      Donnelly

Costelloe        Sylla       Boateng         McCowan

                                Cameron 

                  Bakayoko           Tiffoney

 

Shaughnessy simply too slow. Has no noticeable attributes. Cameron better in forward positions. Boateng harsh to get dropped but in fairness Sylla has been class. Mellon is a great player but it's not working for him. If you watch his Morcambe highlights, he plays in a totally different style and he doesn't get the same chances through on goal as he did in league two. 3 new players/signings added to the team I think should start against Aberdeen and I think will get Europe next season for sure.                     

 

Hopefully Main is back soon. I’d have Main up top and drop Tiffoney back level with Cameron to try solve the problem of getting outnumbered on the wing. Tiffoney and Cameron could cover the wing and one of them can stay tight to the defensive midfielder to prevent them passing through and having time on the ball.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

Has to be Sylla and Boateng v the currants. IMO. We'll see what he does, better not be another total hiding.

[Fifespud]

Watching the game back. The penalty is a joke, the ball is blasted off Joe’s arm from 2 feet. The second goal, straight from our throw in. Donnelly, who was very nervous all game, just needs to bring the big lad down, gets in a total fankle, andboom. There is absolutely no way you could play him as centre half in a back 4. He’s just too raw. Can’t bring myself to watch the 3rd. 

[Girth]

Just kick lumps out of 'em Weds then sneak a 1-0 96th minute winner. 

Edited April 7 by Girth

[kingjoey]

With most pundits thinking that there will still be a top six place up for grabs next weekend, it would be rather lovely for Dundee to get the three points on Wednesday and f*ck up Hibs and Motherwell. It also might stop Dundee from trying too hard next Saturday.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

1 hour ago, Fifespud said:

Watching the game back. The penalty is a joke, the ball is blasted off Joe’s arm from 2 feet. The second goal, straight from our throw in. Donnelly, who was very nervous all game, just needs to bring the big lad down, gets in a total fankle, andboom. There is absolutely no way you could play him as centre half in a back 4. He’s just too raw. Can’t bring myself to watch the 3rd. 

Spot on, a total nonsense, he's pulling his arm out the way, they don't get this help, and we win that game .IMO.

Edited April 7 by Bigmouth Strikes Again

[Hendo]

19 hours ago, Fifespud said:

 More worrying is lack of game time for Astley. Have we paid money for a dud?

You should never gonna give up on him.

[D-Fens Foster]

Normally lads I would be all about you boys giving the blue cheek a bloody nose but for this one time i hope Tavernier gets a hat-trick of pens on Wednesday. 
Always had a soft spot for the Dees but business dictates that we need a Rangers win on Wednesday then a bottle job in Aberdeen come Saturday.

If it’s not us that makes top 6 i hope you boys make it (sorry hibs lads) 

 

[Dundee-FC92]

I don't think we're a top six side yet, however we've taken it to the Pittodrie match as i said in January, just in a slightly different manner.

Some might write the Rangers match off straight away but i've watched so many teams give them problems this season. I'm not expecting a three nil win but i just want to be able to stand up at the end of the match and be happy with the application of the team. Unfortunately we've been abysmal against the OF this season and our results against the top six sides around us are woeful. Teams like Hibs have looked so much better than us but it doesnt matter a f**k if it's us celebrating come Saturday.

Looking forward to the day out to Aberdeen and i'd imagine plenty will make the journey for a top six decider. EIther way the effort will be applauded by me at full time as this season (not without it's faults) for entertainment value has been great. How many times have we been able to say that in recent times?

I've bought my season ticket for 24/25 and prepared to back the club with the vision they're giving for the next few years. This season isn't done yet though - another massive week for the club and hopefully we get over the line for what would be a great achievement for Docherty. The beginning of the planning to next season has to be underway and results this week could help our budget. Get yourself to Aberdeen.

Thank you.