Bigmouth Strikes Again Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Saints have never been relevant. Spot on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEEJANGO Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 McDiarmids outstanding when its full and in voice, the European games were ridiculously fun there. The last time it was full was probably when Dundee played ICT in the challenge cup final. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I think comparing us to English sides is a little disingenuous. Totally different scenarios with much more money involved and much larger fan bases. The two Scottish sides that you make reference to, St Mirren and Falkirk, whilst maybe a little bit better financially, are much poorer off in my opinion. Both have shite shiny new stadiums that are absolutely soulless. To build a new stadium, it'd require in excess of £10 million. Something no-one currently at the club would be willing to spend/free up anytime soon. I get that it can make a football club money, it's certainly made St Mirren £7million (From selling their land, something we can't do). There is no sizeable benefit for us to leave other than a bigger function suite, couple of shite stands that can't hold an atmosphere and an artificial surface with training pitches close-by. I've yet to see a decent new stadium in Scottish football. St Mirren's, Falkirk's, Livi's, St Johnstone's - All terrible sporting arenas. I'm certainly not giving Dens up for that. The point is moot anyways, because I bet we'll still be at Dens for at least another 50 years. The best we'll do is upgrade the Derry (Which has to be looked at, at some point down the line) and install an artificial surface. ETA: As for escapism, I do see it as fixed at Dens. I see it as the same place my grandfather watched Alan Gilzean, my uncle watched Billy Pirie and I watched Caniggia, Adamczuk etc. Caird Park which is the logical place for us to move is harder to get to bus-wise, doesn't have close to as many boozers, and would generally be a poorer experience for the fans IMO. English comparison is difficult to make but my point was more to do with the fact that die hards are always protesting against these sorts of things but there isn't really an obvious example of them actually leaving a club due to a stadium issue. On the financial side of things, the cost of maintaining Dens against a new stadium isn't as drastic as you'd think. Dens will likely always lose money and their is only so much we can do about that. A new ground might be in excess of £10 million but if you could sort out a deal to finance that, it would become profitable and eventually become forever ours and set us up for generations. If the Americans were to be genuine about this, they would be able to present some sort of financing arrangement against their name. They live in mansions and have made charitable donations of $5-10 million to colleges before (hopefully, this results in a 'charitable' re-do of Dens). Another avenue would be some sort of community ownership strategy but that's probably more risky as you could end up playing second fiddle to a bigger group (see Coventry) and future ownership would come at uncertain terms. The atmosphere at Love Street was pretty pish in it's final years (if you play about on google, you get nothing but St Mirren fans moaning about things) and I don't really think their new ground has seen anything but shite in the last few years which has made it a miserable place. Falkirk Stadium was built atrociously and they've made each side far too big meaning that if it is ever fully built, it will be pretty silent. I think it's a mistake to equate old grounds with good atmosphere. Dens has been pretty horrific in a lot of ways over the past few seasons (when we play a big team, the away fans in the Bob Shankly and above the tunnel ruins any home advantage IMO; not sure how we could really fix it easily). Obviously, I'd not want to leave Dens for shite but if it was an open process and thought went into it, we could end up with something decent. If we were to ever do it, I'd like to see parts of Dens actually physically installed and a lot of effort into giving the illusion of a similar ground with much better facilities. Would love stands where it feels like we're on top of the pitch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 harry94, on 28 Feb 2015 - 13:06, said: English comparison is difficult to make but my point was more to do with the fact that die hards are always protesting against these sorts of things but there isn't really an obvious example of them actually leaving a club due to a stadium issue. On the financial side of things, the cost of maintaining Dens against a new stadium isn't as drastic as you'd think. Dens will likely always lose money and their is only so much we can do about that. A new ground might be in excess of £10 million but if you could sort out a deal to finance that, it would become profitable and eventually become forever ours and set us up for generations. If the Americans were to be genuine about this, they would be able to present some sort of financing arrangement against their name. They live in mansions and have made charitable donations of $5-10 million to colleges before (hopefully, this results in a 'charitable' re-do of Dens). Another avenue would be some sort of community ownership strategy but that's probably more risky as you could end up playing second fiddle to a bigger group (see Coventry) and future ownership would come at uncertain terms. The atmosphere at Love Street was pretty pish in it's final years (if you play about on google, you get nothing but St Mirren fans moaning about things) and I don't really think their new ground has seen anything but shite in the last few years which has made it a miserable place. Falkirk Stadium was built atrociously and they've made each side far too big meaning that if it is ever fully built, it will be pretty silent. I think it's a mistake to equate old grounds with good atmosphere. Dens has been pretty horrific in a lot of ways over the past few seasons (when we play a big team, the away fans in the Bob Shankly and above the tunnel ruins any home advantage IMO; not sure how we could really fix it easily). Obviously, I'd not want to leave Dens for shite but if it was an open process and thought went into it, we could end up with something decent. If we were to ever do it, I'd like to see parts of Dens actually physically installed and a lot of effort into giving the illusion of a similar ground with much better facilities. Would love stands where it feels like we're on top of the pitch. Love Street was a great wee ground. Won't hear a word against it. Why would Tim Keyes want to do this? Harry, don't think you've fully thought it through, there's a difference between a charity donation and sinking more than £10million on a project they want a return on. As for financing, the only way we could finance it would be if another proposal for Scotland hosting a major tournament came up and that's not going to be on the cards for a good while and there's quite frankly, more attractive options such as a joint proposal with Ireland, and even then, it's still highly unlikely. The American's whilst seeing us as a good project, don't plan on being here forever, and we're way down the list of being important to their list of business ventures. (We don't even feature as an 'investment' on their website for example) I also think your point regarding Dens atmosphere is wrong. Dens has always had the layout it has had, with away fans in the Shankly side of the ground and the only reason this has became an 'issue' is because United have been walloping us the past few seasons and of course they're going to make more noise when they're 3-0 (Or more) up. I think it's a myth that they 'ruin' home advantage. Even if it were true, though, surely that'd be a good thing, as we're better away from home anyways on the basis of this season? I like the sound of your last paragraph Harry, but that's a complete pipe dream and has no realistic prospect of ever occurring. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Where's he off to? I'd be very surprised if we hold on to him. If we get a semi-decent bid (circa £2m) he'll be off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I'd be very surprised if we didn't have Stewart playing for us next season. Reckon we have another year in him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Love Street was a great wee ground. Won't hear a word against it. Why would Tim Keyes want to do this? Harry, don't think you've fully thought it through, there's a difference between a charity donation and sinking more than £10million on a project they want a return on. As for financing, the only way we could finance it would be if another proposal for Scotland hosting a major tournament came up and that's not going to be on the cards for a good while and there's quite frankly, more attractive options such as a joint proposal with Ireland, and even then, it's still highly unlikely. The American's whilst seeing us as a good project, don't plan on being here forever, and we're way down the list of being important to their list of business ventures. (We don't even feature as an 'investment' on their website for example) I also think your point regarding Dens atmosphere is wrong. Dens has always had the layout it has had, with away fans in the Shankly side of the ground and the only reason this has became an 'issue' is because United have been walloping us the past few seasons and of course they're going to make more noise when they're 3-0 (Or more) up. I think it's a myth that they 'ruin' home advantage. Even if it were true, though, surely that'd be a good thing, as we're better away from home anyways on the basis of this season? I like the sound of your last paragraph Harry, but that's a complete pipe dream and has no realistic prospect of ever occurring. If the board were convinced that: Dens has been holding the club back and is (or will in the next 5-10 years) leaking money Dundee are consistently breaking even and there are no major losses ever reported Future rent arrangements aren't favourable (maybe Bennett situation changes or projected to change) An appropriate site could be found and there are groups willing to work with the club (including DFCSS who would need to indicate a full commitment to the plan) They would definitely look into it. Say it cost £12 million to actually build and is projected to be a profit making facility. Keyes family go in and and cover most of the cost (I'd imagine there would be an effort to involve other groups like Marr's business group and there would be an effort to seek grants in exchange for certain facilities) and lease back to Dundee. If the club were to agree some sort of financing package with them that took into account a percentage of the profits from the non footballing facilities and whore out on sponsorship deals, we could be looking at a gradual transformation to taking majority ownership over 10-15 years and the Keyes family wouldn't make any net loss out of it. Once cleared, we'd have a home that would be sustainable for a long long time. The issue would be in what Keyes actually wants out of Dundee and how much work he's willing to put in. He'd have to be in it for the long haul. I still don't understand why the hell he is here tbh. Is it just a hobby where the challenge of restoring a club excites him or is he actually ever expecting to make anything out of it? When they arrived, they spoke about making small losses every year as not being a problem. Don't see it working if we don't have an individual as the face of it as a large consortium financing it would end up in too many squabbles to keep charge of. Don't think it would be too pie in the sky to suggest that if we were ever moving on, we could work with whatever construction group and make specifications in just how stands are laid out (wouldn't really take any proper engineering or architectural genius to copy some outdated elements and add a modern stamp to them). Might not add up but we've always got to be thinking of new ideas and constantly re-evaluating our position, even more so when we don't own our stadium. Not sure about the current atmosphere and it might just be my youth that is the problem but just never felt like we hold any sort of edge over anyone who bring fans. Like you said, I might just me equating it to being thumped but I just find it difficult to recall a time where the teams are coming out and I feel like we aren't outnumbered. Guess it could just be an illusion based on away fans being concentrated to one area which allows them to make noise I suppose. Edited February 28, 2015 by harry94 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
an-dee Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 In other news, Jim Spence has held his hands up on Twitter and said Bill Colvin has basically got him told and that it should be getting fixed. Good. Absolutely awful journalism. Saw the headline and thought it was a great chance to have a pop. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Good. Absolutely awful journalism. Saw the headline and thought it was a great chance to have a pop. I find it difficult to believe that they never actually understood what was going on. After seeing the screen grab that was going round, it literally took a minute to see what was meant and these guys are educated journalists. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humf Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Good. Absolutely awful journalism. Saw the headline and thought it was a great chance to have a pop. Rump getting him telt. Good stuff 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamamafegan Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 What's going on here? Are there talks of Dundee moving out of Dens? I really hope that doesn't happen. Dens is a famous old ground. It should be redeveloped. The 2 stands behind the goals are already fine. The Main Stand looks a bit ragged. The Derry is quite clearly falling to pieces. I think a new Derry extending further along the pitch would look great. And those stairs leading up to it that are overgrown - get them fixed up. Would be great for home fans to make the walk up the stairs to Dens just like in the days of old. McDiarmids outstanding when its full and in voice, the European games were ridiculously fun there. "McDiarmid" and "outstanding" do not belong in the same sentence. McDiarmid is a shit, shit ground. Saints got the prototype all seater stadium at the time. Don't get me wrong, the atmosphere was excellent for the European games and simply unforgettable. But that was because the ground was nearly full. There would have been a good atmosphere had the game been at the Excelsior or Almondvale. The thing with Dens is that it doesn't need to be nearly full to generate a good atmosphere. This is the key to having a good stadium. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevendfc4 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Knock down the derry, build a new stand which spans the length of the pitch increasing the derry compasity to 2-2.5 Thousand and sort out that big grass area behind it. Renovate the main stand, paint it etc and put a new sound system so people can understand what is being said to them and Dens would be perfect in my eyes, the key is not to take the atmosphere out of the Derry because it's nowhere to be seen or heard anywhere else. If I win the euromillions next week all this will happen haha. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizfit Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Is the main stand a listed building? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevendfc4 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Take the Derry down, you're taking down the soul of the club. I agree but if you've seen it lately you'll know the roof coukd collapse on us at anytime! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweeperDee Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Is the main stand a listed building? Yes it is; I think most Archibald Leitch stands are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthEnclosure Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Bring it down,. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 What's going on here? Are there talks of Dundee moving out of Dens? I really hope that doesn't happen. Dens is a famous old ground. It should be redeveloped. The 2 stands behind the goals are already fine. The Main Stand looks a bit ragged. The Derry is quite clearly falling to pieces. I think a new Derry extending further along the pitch would look great. And those stairs leading up to it that are overgrown - get them fixed up. Would be great for home fans to make the walk up the stairs to Dens just like in the days of old. The thing with Dens is that it doesn't need to be nearly full to generate a good atmosphere. This is the key to having a good stadium. This. It's depressing as f**k to see teams playing in half empty, echoey identikit all-seated stadia. Hopefully we redevelop Dens along the lines of the above. Tidy up the main stand and the Derry. It's a fucking eyesore, soul of the club or not. Sort it out and name it after Billy Steel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmouth Strikes Again Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 'The Billy Steel Derry'.........I like it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiddy Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Is there a web link to a just giving page yet, you know for the next whipround? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmouth Strikes Again Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Is there a web link to a just giving page yet, you know for the next whipround? Dry yer eyes. FFS. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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