banterman86 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Correct, it is. My guess would be simply that ths is the outcome of the vow, something not endorsed by the Greens or the SNP. In short it's a useful summary of what the three big Westminster parties wish to offer us, and a quite tart deconstruction of Labour's proposals, as witnessed by the following phrase being used at least 8 times as the entry for the Labour commission in each chapter: It remains to be seen if the Greens and the SNP proposals can persuade Smith to push a deovlution settlement beyond what Westminster is currently offering. Even then, it would require those parties to go on and actually enact the Smith proposals in full. Given that the command paper is nothing more than a repackaging of the varying devo-micro, nano and pico proposals then I'm not sure they are in the frame of mind to do so. "Westmintser" isn't making a singular offer - the proposals of the three parties are all different. I understand your hesitancy, but i think realpoltik and today's media is going to trump all here - Smith will almost certainly recomend something substantial between the tories and the Green/SNP proposals. The tories have already called their own commission a "ceiling not a floor" which is encouraging. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 "Westmintser" isn't making a singular offer - the proposals of the three parties are all different. I understand your hesitancy, but i think realpoltik and today's media is going to trump all here - Smith will almost certainly recomend something substantial between the tories and the Green/SNP proposals. The tories have already called their own commission a "ceiling not a floor" which is encouraging. . I may be getting my rhetorical devices backwards, but that sounds to me like they are saying their own shitty proposals are in fact an upper limit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I may be getting my rhetorical devices backwards, but that sounds to me like they are saying their own shitty proposals are in fact an upper limit? No, I got it backwards from saturday's Herald. "The Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives have both put forward ambitious blueprints for change, but it is to their credit that this did not stop the Tories from stating yesterday that the Strathclyde Commission plan would be a "starting point" for further discussion and "a floor rather than a ceiling". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 You seem a good egg. I think using mental illness as a means of disparaging people who voted differently is miles beneath you tbh. Oh get off your fucking high horse you tiresome troll. I suspect I'll get a wee wounded reply to this as well. Perhaps a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 No, I got it backwards from saturday's Herald. "The Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives have both put forward ambitious blueprints for change, but it is to their credit that this did not stop the Tories from stating yesterday that the Strathclyde Commission plan would be a "starting point" for further discussion and "a floor rather than a ceiling". Fair enough, and it's decent tactical politics from the coalition partners. It leaves Labour for "a variety of good reasons" so to speak, as the drag factor on the commission - another instance of the Tories painting Labour as basically the bad guys over the constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Fair enough, and it's decent tactical politics from the coalition partners. It leaves Labour for "a variety of good reasons" so to speak, as the drag factor on the commission - another instance of the Tories painting Labour as basically the bad guys over the constitution. The polticking will be fascinating - although not necessarily good for Scotland. The tories seem to a sense a genuine opportunity ofr a slight scottish revival, by being "radical" on devoltuion whilst hoping the SNP move left leaving behind the tartan tories, Labour and the lib dems will try to retain their narrative of the party of devoltuion - how they plan on doing that I don't know The SNP have to decide if they want to use the commission to appease their fundamentalist ofr gradulaist wings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Oh get off your fucking high horse you tiresome troll. I suspect I'll get a wee wounded reply to this as well. Perhaps a question. A question you say? Sure - why did you disappear from your own thread about Nick Clegg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin M Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 The polticking will be fascinating - although not necessarily good for Scotland. The tories seem to a sense a genuine opportunity ofr a slight scottish revival, by being "radical" on devoltuion whilst hoping the SNP move left leaving behind the tartan tories, Labour and the lib dems will try to retain their narrative of the party of devoltuion - how they plan on doing that I don't know The SNP have to decide if they want to use the commission to appease their fundamentalist ofr gradulaist wings I don't really think the Tories will have that as their main motivation (although it's a potential bonus) - more likely they just recognize that it's an opportunity to pile pressure on Labour for political gain. Their angle here was not-so-covertly revealed at 7am on 19th September. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I don't really think the Tories will have that as their main motivation (although it's a potential bonus) - more likely they just recognize that it's an opportunity to pile pressure on Labour for political gain. Their angle here was not-so-covertly revealed at 7am on 19th September. I think it's a bit of both - at UK level sure but Ruth Davidson said repeatedly during the referendum that their proposals would let them run on a tax cutting ticket in 2016. As it stands right now, Labour and the SNP will squabble over the classic labour vote, if the the tories start making promises to cut peoples income tax, expecially if Labour at Uk leevl are in government - it could catch the attention of lots of middle Scotland who have voted New labour then the SNP since devoltuion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Fair enough, and it's decent tactical politics from the coalition partners. It leaves Labour for "a variety of good reasons" so to speak, as the drag factor on the commission - another instance of the Tories painting Labour as basically the bad guys over the constitution. actually - and this is a bit out there so I'd be grateful for thoughts - could "floor not a ceiling" be useful for all members of a potlical union? For example - in Scottish terms, devoltuion of the minimum wage would mean scots workers get the base rate of protection of the UK level, but if a party wnats to make the potlcial choice of raising it faster then they could? Likewise at EU level - could something like say maternity leave be decided at a base rate, but give member states the option to increase it if they so wished? Doing both may have practical consequences of course, but it's an interesting line of thought i think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin M Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I think it's a bit of both - at UK level sure but Ruth Davidson said repeatedly during the referendum that their proposals would let them run on a tax cutting ticket in 2016. As it stands right now, Labour and the SNP will squabble over the classic labour vote, if the the tories start making promises to cut peoples income tax, expecially if Labour at Uk leevl are in government - it could catch the attention of lots of middle Scotland who have voted New labour then the SNP since devoltuion. Possibly yeah, the Holyrood system gives them more scope for growth here. I think there's also the other side of this that they won't want another referendum again any time soon, so any proposal and eventual bill has to be at least seen to deliver something substantial. They'll want to put it to bed and given the result of the referendum, there's quite likely a majority in Scotland who would like it to be also, for the time being at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 These proposals are dreadful. Fat broon sold the Scottish shitebags devo Max. The SNP proposals are Devo Max... thus they must be adopted. Or its referendum time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForzaDundee Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Just skimmed through it. Smith Commission must remember though that the collective opinions of the Unionist parties are only one side of the debate so a simple compromise on these proposals isn't enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Possibly yeah, the Holyrood system gives them more scope for growth here. I think there's also the other side of this that they won't want another referendum again any time soon, so any proposal and eventual bill has to be at least seen to deliver something substantial. They'll want to put it to bed and given the result of the referendum, there's quite likely a majority in Scotland who would like it to be also, for the time being at least. Yeah - it will eb inetresting to see if a referendum makes it into the 2016 manifesto or indeed UDI - there is an obvious unionist attack to the Nats in 2016 if there is. I think Salmond was right to say that it would be a poltical generation away - although if we elect an Yes majority in 2016 then we'd surely be having one anyway? The other thing worth pointing out is that the main financal powers of the 2012 act are only now coming through - what devolution was 1999-2014 won;t be the same even before a new Scoland act is passed, peoples take on it might be different by then as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Debate in the Commons just now on this. Pretty uninteresting stuff, Tories flinging too wee, too poor, too stupid around unchallenged. Primary conclusions we can draw are that Anas Sarwar and Malcolm Rifkind are bellends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 A question you say? Sure - why did you disappear from your own thread about Nick Clegg? I didn't disappear anywhere. I answered the tiresome faux offence dished out by you and your chums just fine. Did you have something else to add? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 It's pretty telling that the Unionists have giddily jumped on this within a few minutes. I'd recommend rat least skim reading the thing before gloating. Eh, the ludicrous post-referendum scaremongering we were hit with from the bitter losers was "Aghhh, it's not happening.... they've gone back on it... looooook!!!!!" Whereas what's happened is, as Reynard says, they've produced the command paper actually a couple of weeks ahead of schedule. Which kind of pishes on the chips of the ludicrous Nats peddling that line furiously. How embarrassing for them. And I speak as someone who doesn't give a flying f**k about the Scottish Parliament and would happily see it removed tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Eh, the ludicrous post-referendum scaremongering we were hit with from the bitter losers was "Aghhh, it's not happening.... they've gone back on it... looooook!!!!!" Whereas what's happened is, as Reynard says, they've produced the command paper actually a couple of weeks ahead of schedule. Which kind of pishes on the chips of the ludicrous Nats peddling that line furiously. How embarrassing for them. And I speak as someone who doesn't give a flying f**k about the Scottish Parliament and would happily see it removed tomorrow. Talks about 'ludicrous scaremongering' relating to the Scottish independence referendum...and yet is blaming the Yes campaign. Your levels of Orwellian double-speak are quite incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Eh, the ludicrous post-referendum scaremongering we were hit with from the bitter losers was "Aghhh, it's not happening.... they've gone back on it... looooook!!!!!" Whereas what's happened is, as Reynard says, they've produced the command paper actually a couple of weeks ahead of schedule. Which kind of pishes on the chips of the ludicrous Nats peddling that line furiously. How embarrassing for them. And I speak as someone who doesn't give a flying f**k about the Scottish Parliament and would happily see it removed tomorrow. Working late?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford prefect Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I'm sure P&Bs thatcherite collective will be happy with this watered down nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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