NCC in ruins yet again

[Kyle]

Well the first rock you'll perish on is the no commitment to hold another referendum in the SNP manifesto.

That would be suicide for the SNP to commit to a referendum in their next manifesto. It wont happen again for a considerable amount of time - I think anyone with half a brain cell realises that - but it's clearly not dead. You might be gone by then, I might have croaked it too in all honesty, but the argument will always bubble right under the surface and I think there will be another referendum done the line.

Rather than scream for another referendum, I'd rather the Yes campaign focussed on a stronger ecomonic argument as that's clearly where the referendum was lost. If it does come around again, that's what the Yes campaign need work on as their argument failed under scrutiny. It annoys me how blaise the SNP in particular were when questioned about the economy. Not nearly enough substance to convince people that a radical change would be to their benefit and, ultimately, people are selfish wankers.

[Reynard]

That would be suicide for the SNP to commit to a referendum in their next manifesto. It wont happen again for a considerable amount of time - I think anyone with half a brain cell realises that - but it's clearly not dead. You might be gone by then, I might have croaked it too in all honesty, but the argument will always bubble right under the surface and I think there will be another referendum done the line.

Rather than scream for another referendum, I'd rather the Yes campaign focussed on a stronger ecomonic argument as that's clearly where the referendum was lost. If it does come around again, that's what the Yes campaign need work on as their argument failed under scrutiny. It annoys me how blaise the SNP in particular were when questioned about the economy. Not nearly enough substance to convince people that a radical change would be to their benefit and, ultimately, people are selfish wankers.

You better explain to Colkitto and the other fundamentalists.

Salmond wasn't proposing "radical change" either. He was very much going for a continuation of a sort of mini UK with his pitch. Even this failed. A radical attempt would have been even more humiliating.

[Kyle]

You better explain to Colkitto and the other fundamentalists.

Salmond wasn't proposing "radical change" either. He was very much going for a continuation of a sort of mini UK with his pitch. Even this failed. A radical attempt would have been even more humiliating.

I'd argue that leaving a political union lasting over 300 years with nothing other than a currency union retained is a radical change. It's certainly how the no campaign pitched it IMO (quite perfectly).

People on both sides of the argument want things to improve in this country I think - there's no reason that can't be achieved as part of the Union and for all the Union. If that does happen, there wont be further need for a referendum, nor would there be any point as a lot of what you might describe as being a 'soft yes' would then probably vote no. There's obviously the fringe that will shout for it and will pick holes regardless, but they don't make up the bulk of the yes campaign IMO.

[H_B]

That would be suicide for the SNP to commit to a referendum in their next manifesto..

It will be quite amusing to see Colkitto's spluttering rage when they don't.

He might have a Walter Wolfgang moment at conference.

[ICTJohnboy]

Rather than scream for another referendum, I'd rather the Yes campaign focussed on a stronger ecomonic argument as that's clearly where the referendum was lost. If it does come around again, that's what the Yes campaign need work on as their argument failed under scrutiny. It annoys me how blaise the SNP in particular were when questioned about the economy. Not nearly enough substance to convince people that a radical change would be to their benefit and, ultimately, people are selfish wankers.

I thought it was the lack of clarity over the currency that they hoped could and would be adopted that created a certain amount of doubt as to viability. In fact to win 45% of the vote given that and other uncertainties was actually quite remarkable.

Someone will come along in the not too distant future with a more persuasive, more coherent and cogent plan for a future independent Scotland. This issue is certainly not going to go away - it is merely end of part 1.

[Reynard]

I'd argue that leaving a political union lasting over 300 years with nothing other than a currency union retained is a radical change. It's certainly how the no campaign pitched it IMO (quite perfectly).

People on both sides of the argument want things to improve in this country I think - there's no reason that can't be achieved as part of the Union and for all the Union. If that does happen, there wont be further need for a referendum, nor would there be any point as a lot of what you might describe as being a 'soft yes' would then probably vote no. There's obviously the fringe that will shout for it and will pick holes regardless, but they don't make up the bulk of the yes campaign IMO.

Thats fair enough. But he pitched the currency union thing as a method of getting around the fact that Scots wanted to keep the pound. This was a policy cobbled around that fact in an effort to maximise a vote. As you say, it largely failed. But The more radical way forward was probably the route of our own currency like Sillars and others advocated. But it wouldn't have flown with the electorate. He was playing it as safe as he possibly could and attempted to make it look as unradical as he possibly could. People just dont go for radical change, they are small c conservative in nature. His focus groups clearly told him all of this. The theme was pretty much to tell us just how much wouldnt change, that tells you everything about what his focus groups were reporting back.

[Kyle]

It will be quite amusing to see Colkitto's spluttering rage when they don't.

He might have a Walter Wolfgang moment at conference.

I don't doubt that the majority of SNP's new members will be sorely disappointed when the new manifesto is released.

[H_B]

In fact to win 45% of the vote given that and other uncertainties was actually quite remarkable.

It was indeed remarkable that with the stars aligning for the best possible referendum conditions, the Yes campaign (despite having targeted a result in the 60s didn't manage to scrape together 45% of the vote).

What an absolute disaster for the "We're going to do this!!!!" car stickers contingent.

[H_B]

I don't doubt that the majority of SNP's new members will be sorely disappointed when the new manifesto is released.

Could be a record number of direct debits being cancelled.

Sturgeon knows the score. It's going to be amusing watching the growing realisation for the "45" badge wearers

[Reynard]

I don't doubt that the majority of SNP's new members will be sorely disappointed when the new manifesto is released.

This is why I was interested to know what the likes of Colkitto plan on doing when this inevitably happens? Will he rock the boat internally or is he simply a party hack who will happy clap the leadership and spin for them?

[Reynard]

Could be a record number of direct debits being cancelled.

Sturgeon knows the score. It's going to be amusing watching the growing realisation for the "45" badge wearers

Indeed. It just hasn't sunk in with these people yet and I cannot understand why. It looks like Kyle has managed to "get" it at least.

[Kyle]

I thought it was the lack of clarity over the currency that they hoped could and would be adopted that created a certain amount of doubt as to viability. In fact to win 45% of the vote given that and other uncertainties was actually quite remarkable.

Someone will come along in the not too distant future with a more persuasive, more coherent and cogent plan for a future independent Scotland. This issue is certainly not going to go away - it is merely end of part 1.

The currency argument and the economy go hand in hand really. Both what currency we'd use and how we'd fund ourselves were unclear to people and required a huge leap of faith. I took that leap of faith and voted yes, but really can't criticise people who voted no on that basis. It's the people who voted no because they don't think we can run our own affairs that annoyed me as that's just a cop out for people too lazy to do any research one way or the other.

[ICTJohnboy]

The people of Scotland will decide if there is another referendum.

Deny the people democracy seems to be what you are suggesting. Lets see how that works out.....

No, they won't.

It was "The People" who got rid of the Poll Tax - and happily, your beloved Margaret Thatcher at the same time.

Remember?

[H_B]

Indeed. It just hasn't sunk in with these people yet and I cannot understand why. It looks like Kyle has managed to "get" it at least.

I foresee a Judean Peoples Front situation emerging.

[Jacksgranda]

Could be a record number of direct debits being cancelled.

Sturgeon knows the score. It's going to be amusing watching the growing realisation for the "45" badge wearers

Forgive my naivety, but exiled as I am in deepest, darkest failed stateletshire, are there actually people going around wearing "45" badges?

[H_B]

Forgive my naivety, but exiled as I am in deepest, darkest failed stateletshire, are there actually people going around wearing "45" badges?

I've seen one person in Stirling....

Of course they could just be a fan of vinyl.

[Kyle]

Forgive my naivety, but exiled as I am in deepest, darkest failed stateletshire, are there actually people going around wearing "45" badges?

Yes.

I've also seen 'don't blame me, I voted yes' badges doing the rounds. It's mega cringe.

[H_B]

I actually feel a bit sorry for Sturgeon. She's inherited a lot of moronic new members that want a new referendum tomorrow, and is going to have to roll her eyes and get them on message.

Which will be difficult as they aren't the brightest, as we've seen on here.

[Kyle]

I think the SNP need to be careful now and I can't see them appeasing both their new and existing members. I'd have said the SNP were a right of centre party, moving left to try and cover the losses the labour party have suffered in Scotland in recent years. I think they'll have picked up a rather large element of the left wingers in this country and are currently being backed by Citizen Tommy and his supporters. The last thing they need now is to splinter the party and lose their more traditional supporters as they're the ones who are far more likely to stay loyal to the party in the long term.

[Jacksgranda]

Sturgeon knows the score. It's going to be amusing watching the growing realisation for the "45" badge wearers

Forgive my naivety, but exiled as I am in deepest, darkest failed stateletshire, are there actually people going around wearing "45" badges?

I've seen one person in Stirling....

Of course they could just be a fan of vinyl.

Yes.

I've also seen 'don't blame me, I voted yes' badges doing the rounds. It's mega cringe.