Question Time

[Cheese]

That South Shields audience will be absolutely Brexited oot their nuts.

[ICTJohnboy]

The good people of South Shields know what they voted for.

 

[pandarilla]

The amount of pish coming from the audience is staggering.

"All politicians are c***s"

"Why aren't we negotiating with other countries"

"Why won't they do what the public want"

The uninformed have the microphone, and they're scattering their meaningless soundbitesb all over my telly.

[ICTJohnboy]

I was never, ever a fan of Max Hastings, but it was Interesting to hear Ken Loach quoting him.

More on that here :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by ICTJohnboy

[beefybake]

17 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

I was never, ever a fan of Max Hastings, but it was Interesting to hear Ken Loach quoting him.

More on that here :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain

 

 

Well,  Max Hastings was Johnsons editor at the Telegraph.  

He was happy enough then to employ Johnson, and give him plenty of room to write his sh*te.

[Lurkst]

4 hours ago, Suspect Device said:

Norman Lamont is still alive. Who'd have known?

He's a good bit younger than Ken Loach.

 

[ICTJohnboy]

36 minutes ago, beefybake said:

Well,  Max Hastings was Johnsons editor at the Telegraph.  

He was happy enough then to employ Johnson, and give him plenty of room to write his sh*te.

 

Fair comment. Does make you wonder why he was on the Torygraph for as long as he was. Especially when Hastings can come out with comments like this :

Quote

Almost the only people who think Johnson a nice guy are those who do not know him.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by ICTJohnboy

[Chapelhall chap]

It was curious to see Richard Leonard on this show and much to my chagrin he was quite good; it looked as if an English audience with mainly UK type questions allowed him to make some sensible points on Brexit etc. He was quite brave taking on such a Leaver audience with his patient explanation about Nissan. He stepped out from UK Labour by emphasising his Remain ( and Reform) views and no one shouted at him. It must have riled the Branch office that he  forgot to bring in SNP Bad ,and maybe he should take himself off to a Labour seat in England.  It looked as if this was a leaver audience which could not abide the Tories: The audience appeared to think that a labour Brexit was on offer so how they would vote in any GE still looks hard to predict. Lamont was a dinosaur in the late 90s and he is unconvincing now. He seemed to suggest we could not revisit the current offer as it was a Treaty but surely that also applied to May's deal which Johnston has claimed he got reopened? I agree about the usual chants from the more extreme leavers but it shows how repeated lines from the spin machine , have impacts. In 2 weeks it is in Scotland so watch out for a remain /leave: Yes/No balanced set. Where is the orange jacket man?

[Boo Khaki]

Aye, Leonard was one of the few voices of sanity and reason heard all night.

I thought he made a decent fist of  subtly explaining wage-slavery to the audience in the wake of demands for deregulation etc in order to spur the economy in the North East. Didn't lay it on too thick, but I thought it was quite an appropriate response to an audience that had been ranting about Thatcher destroying their communities, and then clapping like seals at the mention of a Tory-led Brexit moments later.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Boo Khaki

[Chapelhall chap]

11 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Aye, Leonard was one of the few voices of sanity and reason heard all night.

I thought he made a decent fist of  subtly explaining wage-slavery to the audience in the wake of demands for deregulation etc in order to spur the economy in the North East. Didn't lay it on too thick, but I thought it was quite an appropriate response to an audience that had been ranting about Thatcher destroying their communities, and then clapping like seals at the mention of a Tory-led Brexit moments later.

His trade union background was a plus for him there and you are right about the contradictory responses from much of the audience. As To Kate Andrews and the sunny uplands of opportunity ; that left much of them bemused. 

[Boo Khaki]

I could understand the desperation emanating from the audience in a way. The despair about lack of opportunity and economic stagnation is completely understandable, as is of course, the desire to see something done about it.

What I can't get my head around is why so many of them appear to think that a post-Brexit, deregulated economy is what's going to save them. It's not so much that they've been fed a lie, as they've been allowed to buy into a deception. In Johnson's own words, the idea of a 'Low tax, high wage, market-driven' economy. Now maybe I'm being unfair, but you'd think folk who are still so embittered by Thatcherism and it's effects on those communities, would hear that, and think to themselves "hold on a minute, when we went through the mid-late 80's did any of that 'boom' actually trickle down to us?". 

The idea that 'low tax' resulting in economic growth, and that 'extra' wealth (which in reality will be nothing of the sort) finding it's way into the wage packets of ordinary shop-floor workers and the like is just utterly laughable. The fact they can't see this is what makes it really difficult for me to find any sympathy for them, and doubly difficult to excuse them for being the idiots who are driving this and inflicting it on Scotland and Scottish people.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Boo Khaki

[speckled tangerine]

18 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

I could understand the desperation emanating from the audience in a way. The despair about lack of opportunity and economic stagnation is completely understandable, as is of course, the desire to see something done about it.

What I can't get my head around is why so many of them appear to think that a post-Brexit, deregulated economy is what's going to save them. It's not so much that they've been fed a lie, as they've been allowed to buy into a deception. In Johnson's own words, the idea of a 'Low tax, high wage, market-driven' economy. Now maybe I'm being unfair, but you'd think folk who are still so embittered by Thatcherism and it's effects on those communities, would hear that, and think to themselves "hold on a minute, when we went through the mid-late 80's did any of that 'boom' actually trickle down to us?". 

The idea that 'low tax' resulting in economic growth, and that 'extra' wealth (which in reality will be nothing of the sort) finding it's way into the wage packets of ordinary shop-floor workers and the like is just utterly laughable. The fact they can't see this is what makes it really difficult for me to find any sympathy for them, and doubly difficult to excuse them for being the idiots who are driving this and inflicting it on Scotland and Scottish people.

Yup. 

Because nothing will sort out the after effects of Thatcherism more than a dose of..........21st century Thatcherism.

[Fullerene]

On 25/10/2019 at 00:21, beefybake said:

Well,  Max Hastings was Johnsons editor at the Telegraph.  

He was happy enough then to employ Johnson, and give him plenty of room to write his sh*te.

Yes.  He employed him as an entertaining writer and not necessarily a truthful one.

Incidentally, concerning Max Hastings.  Where was he when 9/11 occurred?  Why he was right there in lower Manhattan, on the spot, the envy of every journalist on the planet.  Actually no.  He was down in the Falklands or as the expression goes "dancing at the wrong wedding".

[Fullerene]

There is an entertaining film called "Shattered Glass" which tells the story of a Washington reporter who go into trouble for just making things up.

They should make a sequel and base it on Johnson's time in Brussels. Then again I am not sure I would watch it.

[Dons_1988]

I do enjoy the number of people who keep their hand up while asking their question.

Gives me a good laugh.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

I could understand the desperation emanating from the audience in a way. The despair about lack of opportunity and economic stagnation is completely understandable, as is of course, the desire to see something done about it.
What I can't get my head around is why so many of them appear to think that a post-Brexit, deregulated economy is what's going to save them. It's not so much that they've been fed a lie, as they've been allowed to buy into a deception. In Johnson's own words, the idea of a 'Low tax, high wage, market-driven' economy. Now maybe I'm being unfair, but you'd think folk who are still so embittered by Thatcherism and it's effects on those communities, would hear that, and think to themselves "hold on a minute, when we went through the mid-late 80's did any of that 'boom' actually trickle down to us?". 
The idea that 'low tax' resulting in economic growth, and that 'extra' wealth (which in reality will be nothing of the sort) finding it's way into the wage packets of ordinary shop-floor workers and the like is just utterly laughable. The fact they can't see this is what makes it really difficult for me to find any sympathy for them, and doubly difficult to excuse them for being the idiots who are driving this and inflicting it on Scotland and Scottish people.

The problem is that most of the people in that studio do not have first hand recollection of Thatcher and her Government's policies, and that combined with a sullen sense of being marginalised makes them prey to those who peddle glib slogans with a xenophobic flavour.

There is also the not inconsiderable factor of the decline of the Labour party, from a progressive party of the Left to an unelectable victim of successive hijackings - first Blair, then Corbyn.

That's why Benny Hill is being given the time of day.

[Boo Khaki]

21 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

The problem is that most of the people in that studio do not have first hand recollection of Thatcher and her Government's policies, and that combined with a sullen sense of being marginalised makes them prey to those who peddle glib slogans with a xenophobic flavour.

There is also the not inconsiderable factor of the decline of the Labour party, from a progressive party of the Left to an unelectable victim of successive hijackings - first Blair, then Corbyn.

That's why Benny Hill is being given the time of day.

This is fair enough, but why is there an apparent discrepancy between the north of England, and for arguments sake, Scotland, in terms of seeing through Brexit for what it is?

Both areas suffered because of Thatcher, both areas have rejected an exposed and diminished Labour party, so why are Scots overwhelmingly rejecting Brexit while their counterparts in North England are baying for it like a pack of especially masochistic dogs?

Scotland has the SNP as an alternative, but England isn't a two party system. There's no law that states that if you can't support Labour any longer, you simply must become a Tory backer and/or back Brexit. I recognise that a lot of those people on QT the other night will never vote Tory, but still, why are they so in favour of a Tory-driven misadventure that will only result in further harming their already poor prospects?

You can be thoroughly fed up with Labour, have an ingrained aversion to voting Tory, and STILL see Brexit for the pile of shite it is. I just don't get why these folk are apparently incapable of seeing through it. They have access to the same info as people elsewhere in the UK, so it's not as if there's an excuse for being ill-informed either.

I really dislike it when folk imply that all Brexit 'Leave' voters are simply thick, as you're dismissing over half the people who expressed a preference as stupid. That seems totally outlandish to me. I do think that voting 'Leave' when you have no idea what form leaving will take is a colossally stupid act, but it doesn't make the voters themselves stupid people. Sadly, I can only conclude that there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance going on, and people's ignorance of the reality of the EU and what it actually does, makes the EU a handy scapegoat thanks to latent xenophobia. I take no pleasure at all in saying that, but I honestly can't see any other excuse or reason for the behaviour.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Boo Khaki

[ICTJohnboy]

22 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

This is fair enough, but why is there an apparent discrepancy between the north of England, and for arguments sake, Scotland, in terms of seeing through Brexit for what it is?

Both areas suffered because of Thatcher, both areas have rejected an exposed and diminished Labour party, so why are Scots overwhelmingly rejecting Brexit while their counterparts in North England are baying for it like a pack of especially masochistic dogs?

Scotland has the SNP as an alternative, but England isn't a two party system. There's no law that states that if you can't support Labour any longer, you simply must become a Tory backer and/or back Brexit. I recognise that a lot of those people on QT the other night will never vote Tory, but still, why are they so in favour of a Tory-driven misadventure that will only result in further harming their already poor prospects?

You can be thoroughly fed up with Labour, have an ingrained aversion to voting Tory, and STILL see Brexit for the pile of shite it is. I just don't get why these folk are apparently incapable of seeing through it. They have access to the same info as people elsewhere in the UK, so it's not as if there's an excuse for being ill-informed either.

I really dislike it when folk imply that all Brexit 'Leave' voters are simply thick, as you're dismissing over half the people who expressed a preference as stupid. That seems totally outlandish to me. I do think that voting 'Leave' when you have no idea what form leaving will take is a colossally stupid act, but it doesn't make the voters themselves stupid people. Sadly, I can only conclude that there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance going on, and people's ignorance of the reality of the EU and what it actually does, makes the EU a handy scapegoat thanks to latent xenophobia. I take no pleasure at all in saying that, but I honestly can't see any other excuse or reason for the behaviour.

 

Great post! It perplexes me too, given that this area is one that would suffer much worse than most in the event of a hard, or (God forbid) a No Deal Brexit.

You certainly hear the cry of "I know what I voted for" much more from that region than others, and it's hard to come up with any kind of credible explanation for that other than xenophobia.

Maybe some of those on here who support Brexit, could explain what those who insist they" know what they voted for" mean when they persistently come out with that phrase?

[O'Kelly Isley III]

This is fair enough, but why is there an apparent discrepancy between the north of England, and for arguments sake, Scotland, in terms of seeing through Brexit for what it is?
Both areas suffered because of Thatcher, both areas have rejected an exposed and diminished Labour party, so why are Scots overwhelmingly rejecting Brexit while their counterparts in North England are baying for it like a pack of especially masochistic dogs?
Scotland has the SNP as an alternative, but England isn't a two party system. There's no law that states that if you can't support Labour any longer, you simply must become a Tory backer and/or back Brexit. I recognise that a lot of those people on QT the other night will never vote Tory, but still, why are they so in favour of a Tory-driven misadventure that will only result in further harming their already poor prospects?
You can be thoroughly fed up with Labour, have an ingrained aversion to voting Tory, and STILL see Brexit for the pile of shite it is. I just don't get why these folk are apparently incapable of seeing through it. They have access to the same info as people elsewhere in the UK, so it's not as if there's an excuse for being ill-informed either.
I really dislike it when folk imply that all Brexit 'Leave' voters are simply thick, as you're dismissing over half the people who expressed a preference as stupid. That seems totally outlandish to me. I do think that voting 'Leave' when you have no idea what form leaving will take is a colossally stupid act, but it doesn't make the voters themselves stupid people. Sadly, I can only conclude that there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance going on, and people's ignorance of the reality of the EU and what it actually does, makes the EU a handy scapegoat thanks to latent xenophobia. I take no pleasure at all in saying that, but I honestly can't see any other excuse or reason for the behaviour.

You've answered your own question - Scotland has the SNP to represent the country's interests, no part of England has similar. And I'd disagree that England is not a two-party nation; it is indeed that with the Lib Dems no more than an occasional pressure relief valve.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

It's not stupidity but ignorance that is the problem.