Rewilding Scotland

[DiegoDiego]

I have my doubts, a toaty wee bit being re-wilded every year won't support many diverse reintroduced species - there wouldn't be enough room for them to exist comfortably - so there would be no influx of tourists to see them and there would be the subsequent loss of income from being no longer a grouse moor.
They would have to be subsidised by the government - possibly for years - and then pay it back. It will never happen, imo.

That's kinda why I don't really buy the argument that's been made on here about the massive economic advantages to be made from altering the land use. It's not like these guys need short term returns either.

[bennett]

1 hour ago, 101 said:

Remember to report and salmon you catch on the rivers the authorities are keeping tabs on the escapees. Although they have never had to swim up rivers so they might get stuck or lost or eaten

Return forms were handed in November plus scale samples sent to ayrshire rivers trust.

It's if they breed with wild fish that's the main worry.

 

[101]

2 minutes ago, bennett said:

Return forms were handed in November plus scale samples sent to ayrshire rivers trust.

It's if they breed with wild fish that's the main worry.

 

Good stuff hopefully they are so hopeless they don't get into the gene pool

[Snobot]

3 hours ago, 101 said:

Good stuff hopefully they are so hopeless they don't get into the gene pool

Sadly not. They are perfectly capable of spawning, their progeny / hybrids are faster growing due to 40+ years of farmed breeding so out-compete native juvenile fish, but are less able to thrive as mature fish. It has been recognised as a phenomenon for a long time - the extinction vortex. Some west coast rivers show a high % of hybrid / farmed origin fish.

The Ayrshire escape was worst possible timing, 50 k mature fish escaping in the lead up to natural spawning. This latest one is juvenile fish so potentially less damaging as they are unlikely to spawn or impact on spawning. However, wild stocks are so low in Skye, ironically as a direct result of salmon farming, that any escape like this could vastly outnumber native fish. Pretty much all the salmon farmed in Scotland is from Norwegian or Faroese stock, whereas native fish have evolved to a micro river level since the last ice age, with distinct unique populations even within rivers.

I’ve said before, salmon farming is an environmental abomination in Scotland and hopefully awareness of this is growing. Tavish Scott ex Lib Dem is the latest mouthpiece for the industry, whose pronouncements would generally make Comical Ali blush. Scottish Govt pays lip service to environmental issues but has done very little to effectively address them.

Anyone interested in salmon, rivers etc, the Ness Fishery Board is well worth a follow on Twitter for amazing under water footage @FishtheNess 

[vikingTON]

7 hours ago, bennett said:

 

 

The west coast fish farms need to be removed coastal waters,  the damage they do is horrific especially to migratory fish and shellfish. 

After an escape of atleast 50'000 salmon in August from a Mowi fish farm at Carradale, the rivers in Ayrshire and further afield were filled with escapees. 

There are next to no fish stocks in the Firth of Clyde basin anyway because of everyone's beloved 'natural' fishing practices having cleared the place out over fucking decades . Call me entirely unsympathetic then about farmed fish 'spoiling' a marine desert by having the temerity to actually live in the water. 

[Snobot]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

There are next to no fish stocks in the Firth of Clyde basin anyway because of everyone's beloved 'natural' fishing practices having cleared the place out over fucking decades . Call me entirely unsympathetic then about farmed fish 'spoiling' a marine desert by having the temerity to actually live in the water. 

It’s an issue right up the western sea board, notwithstanding the well-rehearsed plight of the fish stocks in the Firth of Clyde. Perhaps if the Tory Government hadn’t removed the 3 mile limit in the mid 80s there would still be some fish in the Firth of Clyde. However, the fact that greed and avarice cleaned out the Clyde doesn’t mean an overwhelmingly Norwegian owned industry should have Carte Blanche to trash our marine environment in an arguably far worse manner by massively degrading a once pristine environment for the benefit of some massive foreign corporations. I don’t suppose the poor salmon, as migratory fish, are particularly happy being stuffed half a million to the cage either, borne out by the horrendous mortality rate in farmed salmon production.

As an example, Scottish Sea Farms (a Norwegian company) are currently trying to get permission to build a large new farm within the Wester Ross Marine Protected Area. They have a poor environmental record and wouldn’t get away with the way they farm in Scotland in Norway as the regulatory regime is far tougher there. Here’s a short film setting out the issues. 

 

[vikingTON]

What's the fact that they're a Norwegian-owned industry got to do with anything? I don't think that fish farms should automatically be given the green light or anything (Private Eye does an okay job of covering this issue, though made a massive fail recently in trying to SNPbad the topic before they, err, upheld objections to a new farm). The idea that fish farms are ruining an otherwise pristine and natural ecosystem is wishful thinking nonsense though. The reason why we have fish farms in the 21st century is because of the sheer greed of the wild fishing industry in the twentieth that has created a marine desert around many of the coasts of Scotland. Fish farming certainly needs to be well regulated but they are not the underlying cause of the problem. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by vikingTON

[bennett]

virginton does have a point about the overfishing in the firth of clyde and surrounding sea lochs but as usual, he just can't help himself...

 

The collapse of the sea trout fishery at loch Maree after salmon farming started in Loch Ewe is a great example of the devastation poorly located fish farms can cause.

 

 

[Snobot]

1 hour ago, bennett said:

virginton does have a point about the overfishing in the firth of clyde and surrounding sea lochs but as usual, he just can't help himself...

 

The collapse of the sea trout fishery at loch Maree after salmon farming started in Loch Ewe is a great example of the devastation poorly located fish farms can cause.

 

 

Agreed on both counts. The worrying thing is that at the very moment Mowi finally agreeing to get out of Loch Ewe, the local fisheries trust has had to pretty much close down and make the trust biologist redundant due to withdrawal of funding due to Covid. This could be the study that directly correlates the recovery of a sea trout fishery with the removal of the local farm. I’ve no idea if anything will be done or if the DSFB will do anything.

I know that where I fish, sea lice increased and fish disappeared. Sea lice are now under control locally and sea trout are back in numbers. It’s not difficult.

The Wester Ross Fisheries Trust was doing great work in slowly proving the scientific link between the farms and sea lice which is so obvious but hard to conclusively prove. Hopefully they get back on their feet again. 

 

[Snobot]

tl:dr

You mentioned ecosystems. I didn’t. I am talking about environment.

There is an important distinction between the two. If I catch all the fish in a fish tank the environment will still be pristine, however if my Norwegian neighbour then takes a dump in it the environment is degraded, any remnant ecosystem will suffer and subsequent ecosystems are less likely to thrive in that environment. 
 

On 16/01/2021 at 01:06, virginton said:

What's the fact that they're a Norwegian-owned industry got to do with anything?

Because in a lightly regulated industry, the polluter acts with impunity, exploits and significantly degrades the environment for profit. The significant environmental costs are absorbed by local communities, the environment and its ecosystems in Scotland whilst the large profit made in doing so is removed from this country, minus tax, the wages of the employees and the cost of some kits for the local football team or other such simple PR exercise, without adequate redress of the damage caused.

They can’t operate like this back in Norway because the industry is far better regulated with statutory powers of inspection and closure eg if sea lice numbers rise above a very low level. Here, it is a laughable voluntary self reporting and self-policing regime.

On 16/01/2021 at 01:06, virginton said:

though made a massive fail recently in trying to SNPbad the topic before they, err, upheld objections to a new farm)

The SNP has been lamentable on this (as have Lab/Lib before them). Fergus Ewing is on record saying he will do whatever it takes to expand the industry. A cross party Holyrood committee concluded two years ago that the status quo was unacceptable and stronger regulation was urgently required yet nothing has been done until a recent announcement that regulation would improve (meanwhile the industry has pushed forward lots of expansion plans).

The Skye farm appeal refusal by the SG Reporter was a surprising but welcome development, having been rejected by the local community and at planning stage by the Highland Council. 2 of the directors of Organic Sea Harvest are local councillors - 1 SNP and 1 independent hence the whiff of corruption which would interest PI when the initial planning decision was called in. Maybe the first steps to redress the balance.

On 16/01/2021 at 01:06, virginton said:

The idea that fish farms are ruining an otherwise pristine and natural ecosystem is wishful thinking nonsense though.

I never mentioned ecosystems, which have indeed been severely impacted by over fishing due to the removal of the 3 mile limit as already pointed out. I am talking about the environment in which the ecosystems exist. It’s estimated that salmon farms in Scotland in 2018 were emitting 35,000 tonnes of untreated fish shit directly into that environment in highly concentrated clusters. Each farm discharges the equivalent of a small town’s worth of Nitrogen directly into the water column, untreated, on the premise it’ll just get swept away, even in shallow, sheltered sea lochs. Not even mentioning chemicals, disease, sea lice, plastics, micro plastics, wildlife persecution etc.
 

Places like Uist, Torridon, Wester Ross, Assynt, Skye and pretty much anywhere on the coastline north of Kintyre were in the main pristine environments. The ecosystems may have been badly damaged by overfishing;  the environment in which they exist and the ability of the ecosystems to recover is seriously compromised where salmon aquaculture exists. 2 distinct but linked issues.

 

On 16/01/2021 at 01:06, virginton said:

The reason why we have fish farms in the 21st century is because of the sheer greed of the wild fishing industry in the twentieth that has created a marine desert around many of the coasts of Scotland.

Open sea salmon cages were established in the late 60s when there were plenty of fish in the sea. It was supposed to be a local enterprise to provide local jobs and generate income for the Highlands and Islands. It was successful and mainly swallowed up by large corporations for the benefit of shareholders and the super rich rather than local individual farmers and communities. None of the other food fish have been successfully farmed in Scotland on a large scale. The fact is they have flooded the market with cheap protein in the shape of salmon, but at significant environmental cost.
 

Ironically, given that one of the aims was to reduce exploitation of wild fish, the impact of farms (particularly sea lice and disease) have all but wiped out wild salmonid populations where sustainable wild fisheries once existed. There are bigger, unknown issues regarding marine survival of salmon adding to the problem. 

 

[RiG]

Another day another study / informal consultation on reintroducing Lynx.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-55857070

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

5 minutes ago, RiG said:

Another day another study / informal consultation on reintroducing Lynx.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-55857070

I've got one in my bath that's getting released in the pentlands this weekend

[oneteaminglasgow]

52 minutes ago, RiG said:

Another day another study / informal consultation on reintroducing Lynx.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-55857070

Quote

There are strong critics of the idea, with the National Farmers Union Scotland (NFUS) saying a return of the predator would be "wholly unacceptable" to its members.

Well, that’s me fully on board with the idea.

[G51]

Every time someone from the Central Belt proposes reintroducing an animal into the Highlands, it should be conditional on that animal first being "reintroduced" to Edinburgh or Glasgow for several years.

You aren't talking about an unspoiled wilderness here - there are rural communities to be considered as well. And there is evidence to support the NFU's view that reintroducing lynx would result in a significant increase in the number of attacks on sheep. So why is the juice worth the squeeze?

[The Moonster]

6 minutes ago, G51 said:

Every time someone from the Central Belt proposes reintroducing an animal into the Highlands, it should be conditional on that animal first being "reintroduced" to Edinburgh or Glasgow for several years.

You aren't talking about an unspoiled wilderness here - there are rural communities to be considered as well. And there is evidence to support the NFU's view that reintroducing lynx would result in a significant increase in the number of attacks on sheep. So why is the juice worth the squeeze?

It's nationwide charities proposing this, not some random weegie who likes big cats. Where would you release a Lynx in Glasgow?

Anything that pisses off Brexit voting, Union loving fermers is fine by me. 

[G51]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

It's nationwide charities proposing this, not some random weegie who likes big cats. Where would you release a Lynx in Glasgow?

Anything that pisses off Brexit voting, Union loving fermers is fine by me. 

yes I wasn't entirely serious about releasing a lynx in Glasgow. though if I had to choose a location, it would probably be somewhere in the Parkhead area.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

27 minutes ago, G51 said:

 

You aren't talking about an unspoiled wilderness here - there are rural communities to be considered as well. And there is evidence to support the NFU's view that reintroducing lynx would result in a significant increase in the number of attacks on sheep. So why is the juice worth the squeeze?

You just do the same as every other country and compensate livestock predation, no?

[thisal]

12 minutes ago, G51 said:

yes I wasn't entirely serious about releasing a lynx in Glasgow. though if I had to choose a location, it would probably be somewhere in the Parkhead area.

Lynx in Parkhead. That'd be a first.

[G51]

4 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

You just do the same as every other country and compensate livestock predation, no?

That's only really a workable solution if it's a rare event. If every other crofter starts losing sheep to lynx, then it becomes a bit of a farce doesn't it. Plus, it's not that easy to work out what the compensation should be because not every lamb or sheep is worth £x - there's a bit of nuance involved, which makes the scheme costly to administer.

And I kinda get back to my last point - why is all this worth it?

[jamamafegan]

You just do the same as every other country and compensate livestock predation, no?

Are you mental? That would never work here. These things don’t work in this country!