mrman2011 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The League Cup needs a change as it's very stale and there is not a lot of interest in it I would suggest a return to groups as I believe that will get the crowds coming back and more money for the smaller clubs within the 32. Prelim round between the bottom 4 clubs within the "42" this will be two legs to ensure that some clubs do not miss out The 4 best clubs get a bye to the last 16 and they will be joined by 12 others from a group stage 12 groups of 3 ( seeded of course) but it gives the chance of 1 extra game for smaller clubs and it's a hard format as only the winner goes though The last 16 onwards will be single leg knockout 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The League Cup needs a change as it's very stale and there is not a lot of interest in it I would suggest a return to groups as I believe that will get the crowds coming back and more money for the smaller clubs within the 32. Prelim round between the bottom 4 clubs within the "42" this will be two legs to ensure that some clubs do not miss out The 4 best clubs get a bye to the last 16 and they will be joined by 12 others from a group stage 12 groups of 3 ( seeded of course) but it gives the chance of 1 extra game for smaller clubs and it's a hard format as only the winner goes though The last 16 onwards will be single leg knockout Instead of seeded groups you could also try geographical groups as fans will show up for these derbys 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booker-T Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 top 32 league clubs enter, but teams who qualified for europe can opt out if they wish. 4 games to win it for all entrants - no extra time, straight to pens and all to take place before the end of October. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 HJ will no doubt be along with a historically correct speel about why regional groups were binned in the past, but I've actually came round to the idea. The key word in the OP is this: stale. Of course, playing regional groups every year will get as stale as the current seeded version in which the system is heavily weighted against lower league clubs. Which is why they should consider rotating between the two systems on a regular basis; a regional group every four years, for example. There is absolutely no doubt that Morton-St Mirren-Ayr-Kilmarnock for example in a group, playing once on a four year basis, would raise far, far more revenue for each club than Morton v Berwick at Cappielow and then a routine papping out by Saint Johnstone or Inverness. Ditto St Mirren or Kilmarnock playing at home against East Fife or Stenhousemuir. Get it done. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 HJ will no doubt be along with a historically correct speel about why regional groups were binned in the past, but I've actually came round to the idea. The key word in the OP is this: stale. Of course, playing regional groups every year will get as stale as the current seeded version in which the system is heavily weighted against lower league clubs. Which is why they should consider rotating between the two systems on a regular basis; a regional group every four years, for example. There is absolutely no doubt that Morton-St Mirren-Ayr-Kilmarnock for example in a group, playing once on a four year basis, would raise far, far more revenue for each club than Morton v Berwick at Cappielow and then a routine papping out by Saint Johnstone or Inverness. Ditto St Mirren or Kilmarnock playing at home against East Fife or Stenhousemuir. Get it done. The only problem is take my area as an example if its groups of 4 how do you sort out who goes where with alloa, stirling, shire, stenny, Falkirk and any others within a close proximity if I've missed them 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Despite having followed United around 25 years i have never seen united play arbroath, montrose, brechin or forfar in a competitive fixture. I think there would be an appetite for these games, at least initially. Even more so if we could get a few Saturday games in the sunshine early on in the season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) HJ will no doubt be along with a historically correct speel about why regional groups were binned in the past, but I've actually came round to the idea. The key word in the OP is this: stale. Of course, playing regional groups every year will get as stale as the current seeded version in which the system is heavily weighted against lower league clubs. Which is why they should consider rotating between the two systems on a regular basis; a regional group every four years, for example. There is absolutely no doubt that Morton-St Mirren-Ayr-Kilmarnock for example in a group, playing once on a four year basis, would raise far, far more revenue for each club than Morton v Berwick at Cappielow and then a routine papping out by Saint Johnstone or Inverness. Ditto St Mirren or Kilmarnock playing at home against East Fife or Stenhousemuir. Get it done. I've sort of come round to it too, but you have to make sure that the groups are reasonably evenly spread. It would be a bit of a farce if there was an Angus group with four teams in the bottom two tiers, and then a Tayside group with 3 top flight clubs, for example. Edited February 13, 2015 by craigkillie 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I wouldnt even be against groups being uneven a la world cup and euro qualifiers, if it meant you could nail down the regional aspect properly. for example North East 4 Aberdeen Elgin Peterhead Montrose Tayside 5 Dundee United Dundee Forfar Brechin Arbroath Fife 4 Dunfermline East Fife Raith Cowdenbeath Central 5 St Johnstone Alloa Falkirk E Stirling Stirling Highland League/North Junior to go with ICT and county 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I wouldnt even be against groups being uneven a la world cup and euro qualifiers, if it meant you could nail down the regional aspect properly. for example North East 4 Aberdeen Elgin Peterhead Montrose Tayside 5 Dundee United Dundee Forfar Brechin Arbroath Fife 4 Dunfermline East Fife Raith Cowdenbeath Central 5 St Johnstone Alloa Falkirk E Stirling Stirling Highland League/North Junior to go with ICT and county Aye, the Dundee clubs will agree to Aberdeen getting a bye every year. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Aye, the Dundee clubs will agree to Aberdeen getting a bye every year. If it means I can legitimately spend a sunny july afternoon drinking deisel in Brechin its worth it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 There were never regional groups in the League Cup - there were in the (short-lived) Summer Cup. It sounds like this is roughly what some SPFL clubs want to try: create extra matches, and presumably a bit more income, via a short group-stage in July using some kind of regional element. There are potential issues though, which makes me think it mightn't last very long if it was introduced: (1) - if you make it actual derbies then you knock the pan out of them after a couple of years; the derbies of Scotland don't all handily break down into multiples of 3 or 4; and it's pretty unfair (e.g. strength of Angus clubs v strength of Glasgow clubs) (2) - on the other hand, if you just regionalise in geographic zones (e.g. 4 zones with 4 groups in each), you get many less interesting games (3) - 42 clubs is a really awkward number to make groups from; and you can't really have a preliminary round as you'd only find-out the qualifiers the week before, and the losing clubs would find themselves sitting about doing nothing for a couple of weeks (4) - broadly-speaking, group games are always going to be less interesting than knockout ties, and would see some meaningless matches (5) - the SPFL idea apparently adds the CL/EL clubs in the knockout stage. That removes some of the biggest names and derbies. (6) - some clubs would probably treat them like the friendlies they'd replace. That could undermine credibility and interest. It might be worth a go, and I'd like to see competitive games in later July. But for the reasons I outline, you wonder if it would have much longevity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Example from other thread: http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/219937-league-cup-reboot-12-semi-finals/?p=9148067 North A ... Aberdeen / Peterhead / Brora North B ... Forfar / Montrose / Elgin North C ... Inverness / Brechin / Turriff North D ... Ross County / Arbroath / Wick East A ... Dundee / Raith / Berwick East B ... Dundee Utd / Livingston / Dunfermline East C ... Hearts / Hibs / East Fife East D ... St Johnstone / Cowdenbeath / Edinburgh City Central A ... Dumbarton / Stirling Albion / Albion Rovers Central B ... Falkirk / Stenhousemuir / Clyde Central C ... Hamilton / Alloa / East Kilbride Central D ... Motherwell / Airdrie / East Stirlingshire West A ... Celtic / Stranraer / Annan West B ... Kilmarnock / Rangers / Ayr West C ... Partick / Queen of the South / Gretna West D ... St Mirren / Morton / Queen's Park 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Aye, the Dundee clubs will agree to Aberdeen getting a bye every year. Ssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Aye, the Dundee clubs will agree to Aberdeen getting a bye every year. It's what makes the two League Cups in the West Juniors a bit of a joke as the groups are very imbalanced. Shotts get that bye every year being in a dreadful group whereas the one Pollok were in at one time contained half the top flight of the Central Region (Lok, Arthurlie, Renfrew, Johnstone, Neilston and Benburb - though the 7th team St Anthony's I'm sure actually qualified latterly before they changed it). With my Dons hat on and experience of stale league cup groups, I think the idea is a bit of a non-starter. Cup crowds are invariably pish as they're not covered by a season ticket. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 It's what makes the two League Cups in the West Juniors a bit of a joke as the groups are very imbalanced. Shotts get that bye every year being in a dreadful group whereas the one Pollok were in at one time contained half the top flight of the Central Region (Lok, Arthurlie, Renfrew, Johnstone, Neilston and Benburb - though the 7th team St Anthony's I'm sure actually qualified latterly before they changed it). With my Dons hat on and experience of stale league cup groups, I think the idea is a bit of a non-starter. Cup crowds are invariably pish as they're not covered by a season ticket. It needs to stay the same for Shotts....or get made easier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 It needs to stay the same for Shotts....or get made easier. Wishaw's adding makes it a bit more competitive these days but the group of SBA, Carluke, Lanark and Forth was an annual two-horse race at best. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAl Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Example from other thread: http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/219937-league-cup-reboot-12-semi-finals/?p=9148067 North A ... Aberdeen / Peterhead / Brora North B ... Forfar / Montrose / Elgin North C ... Inverness / Brechin / Turriff North D ... Ross County / Arbroath / Wick East A ... Dundee / Raith / Berwick East B ... Dundee Utd / Livingston / Dunfermline East C ... Hearts / Hibs / East Fife East D ... St Johnstone / Cowdenbeath / Edinburgh City Central A ... Dumbarton / Stirling Albion / Albion Rovers Central B ... Falkirk / Stenhousemuir / Clyde Central C ... Hamilton / Alloa / East Kilbride Central D ... Motherwell / Airdrie / East Stirlingshire West A ... Celtic / Stranraer / Annan West B ... Kilmarnock / Rangers / Ayr West C ... Partick / Queen of the South / Gretna West D ... St Mirren / Morton / Queen's Park The groups of 3 and Sat-Wed-Sat set up that you're proposing here/elsewhere could work, but I think you'd be looking at 13 groups of 3, with the previous season's top 3 given byes to meet the 13 group winners in the last 16 knock-out stage. There might have to be a two-stage first round draw to make it work: 1) the first 3 teams out of the hat from each of the 10 'local' areas are drawn into groups; 2) the remaining 9 teams are divided into 3 groups of 3, either based on who is closest geographically or a random draw to keep an element of freshness and opportunity each season. For example: North: Inverness, Ross County, Elgin, Peterhead. Ab-Angus: Aberdeen*, Montrose, Brechin, Forfar, Arbroath, Dundee, Dundee Utd*, St.Johnstone. Fife: Dunfermline, Raith Rvs, East Fife, Cowdenbeath. Lothians: Hearts, Hibs, Livingston, Berwick. Central: Alloa, East Stirlinghshire, Stirling Albion, Falkirk, Stenny. Lanarkshire: Motherwell, Hamilton, Albion, Airdrie. Clyde North: Clyde, Partick, Celtic*, Dumbarton. Clyde South: Morton, Rangers, St.Mirren, Queen's Park. South: Killie, Ayr Utd, Stranraer, Annan, Queen of the South. *So Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Celtic all by-pass the group stage on merit as they they will (possibly) have been the previous season's top 3. There are two groups of 3 in the Aberdeen-Angus section. There are 10 'local' groups of 3 teams (30), with a further 3 'regional' or 'random' groups of 3 (+9). The highlighted teams, as last out of the hat for their respective areas, miss out on the 'local' matches, but could be broken down into...Ross County/Raith/Berwick (!), Alloa/Stenny/Motherwell, St.Mirren/Ayr/Annan – or just drawn randomly. Any clubs promoted via 'pyramid' are added to the relevant 'local' group then drawn as normal. Our fourth team playing in Europe can have the mid-week Wed free if need be, playing on the Sat at either side. You could be looking at the following dates for the 2015/16 season: Sat 25th July – Wed 29th July – Sat 1st Aug (Round 1, Regional Groups); Wed 12th Aug (Last 16, where last season's top 3 enter); Wed 23rd Sep is free, so schedule Quarters on the Sat before, with mid-week league catch-up; Wed 28th Oct is free, so schedule Semis on Sat 24th Oct with league catch-up in mid-week; Wed 2nd Dec is free, so schedule Final on Sun 29th Nov with league catch-up the following Wed. It'd be better to see all of the clubs involved in the groups, but it's a tricky one to work... So you'd have a mini-festival of local, summer football to kick off the season (for most), with a random element to the draw keeping fixtures and opportunities to progress fresh (by changing the groups slightly each year), you'd give the league cup some identity and a final for the first half of the season, and if it's crap you can just bin it after a couple of years and go back what we have at the moment. ??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAl Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) If you wanted to include all 42 SPFL clubs, you could be looking at drawing either: 1) 6 groups of 4 teams (24) + 6 groups of 3 teams (18), or 2) 3 groups of 4 teams (12) + 10 groups of 3 teams (30) in the same two-part draw as described above, using the same dates. In both cases you could use the same Sat-Wed-Sat at the end of July, since groups of 4 teams playing each other once would take the same number of fixture dates (3) as groups of 3 teams playing each other once. If the teams competing in Europe were deliberately drawn into the groups of 3, they could avoid the need for playing a league cup game on the mid-week, which would then allow the league cup to fit in with their mid-week European ties. For scenario 1, you would have the 12 group winners qualifying plus 4 best runners-up; you could even seed each Premiership side, one into each group, but it might get a bit dull doing that. For scenario 2, you would have all 13 group winners qualifying plus the 3 runners-up from the groups with 4 teams (?), so 2 are knocked out from each group. And you could always change the regions around a bit, so there'd just be Clyde region, for example, with Killie and Ayr in it too, and names drawn out the hat into groups of 3 or 4 until only 1 or 2 teams are left (in each 'region'), who could then end up in one of the more 'random' groups; this could put Queen of the South, Annan, Stranraer and Berwick in a South section, etc... Edited February 16, 2015 by RabidAl 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruoninga Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 It should be kept in mind that since the last couple of decades there is a general shift in public interest going on; moving from the domestic competitions towards the Champions League and the two or three best leagues in the world. This is an international movement, as the clubs from Spain and England keep getting richer in comparison to the rest of the continent and the gap in quality keeps on widening. This process is not typical for Scotland; the fanbase of FC Barcelona, Real Madrid and the English top teams is increasing everywhere at the expense of the local teams. Top this with the economic recession and it was to be expected that the least popular of Scotland's three main domestic competitions was to first to get the hit. Ergo; the alleged unpopularity of the League Cup might not be a result of the tournament's set-up, and any changes to its format might do little to increase crowd figures. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAl Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Even given the background trends that you mention, it wouldn't hurt to try to make the core product of the Scottish game as interesting and as affordable for domestic fans as possible. Public interest isn't just driven by quality of football, which you mention, but also by what's at stake (amongst other things). Which is why the competition's format is important. And why the Champions' League group stages are, for me anyway, a total turn off. Not that regional groups in the league cup would necessarily be the answer - it just seems to be a good way to get more fans along to games in the earlier rounds of the league cup, by having consecutive derbies in the summer to kick off each season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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