renton Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Labour are just a good leader away from being election favourites again. Unfortunately for them, none of the options at the moment fall into that category. A good leader and a coherent set of beliefs away, perhaps. It's more than just the face at the front, I think they have to develop - or redevelop - some sense of what the party is actually for. Policy will develop naturally from that, rather than trying to force together a shopping list of 'retail offers'. If they are to be a left wing party, then they have to find a way of developing that belief in a way that will attract middle England, which means away from the centralist, statist approach. If they are to be a centre-right party, where it looks much easier to win, they need a belief system that allows enough differentiation from the Tories to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 You've angered the precious wee lamb, hence the barbed response. Super. He's just angry the independence question is not actually settled. On September 19th he thought that's it the bad dreams will now go away only to find they didn't. With the passing days and weeks he sat in a darkened room watching the SNP membership go through the roof. And then the horror of the SNP Tsunami in May makes it all so real. Indyref2 is on it's way in the near future and even he admits his side will probably lose next time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I don't think going further to the left would have helped them atall. Being trusted on the economy probably lost them the election in the seats they needed to win, not because they weren't offering a left wing alternative. I'd love Labour to be able to win elections from the left, hence why I wanted a Labour/SNP coalition, but it's not going to happen. A left wing party isn't going to win an election in Britain in the present climate. I'd rather a Labour Party closer to the centre in power than the Tories and I don't think they're just the same. I think arguing an anti-austerity policy similar to the SNP would have given them credibility. As it was they suffered from the Tony Benn prediction that "if you offer people the choice of two Conservative parties don't be surprised if they choose the real one". The fact is we will never know because Labour ran such a terrible campaign. At the risk of continually repeating myself, at every interview Miliband should have been reminding people that Osborne doubled the National Debt between 2010 and 2015. Instead he barely mentioned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 A good leader and a coherent set of beliefs away, perhaps Well, I think they need a salesman. Did Labour in 1997 have a coherent set of beliefs? Not that I remember. They were like the SNP are now in a lot of ways. They successfully played the game of being all things to all people, with a vicious cadre of spin doctors and a really tight on message approach to internal discipline, with a leader that performed well in public, and was statesmanlike. Parties that are in power too long eat themselves and are replaced. Happened with the Tories in 97 and happened to Labour in 2010. All of this "Labour are finished" nonsense, is just that. They will be back - and with a centrist populist leader who can carry a country, as Blair did. They have another 5 years to find a proper leader. This is a Ian Duncan Smith/Hague type appointment just now. It's all about positioning for the next guy. I'd like to think behind the scenes they are trying desperately to find a 30 something candidate with potential to guide in an Anthony Joshua type way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Indyref2 is on it's way in the near future It's going to be in the 2016 manifesto. You did tell us that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Indyref2 is on it's way in the near future and even he admits his side will probably lose next time... Couldn't agree more, especially with David "No" Mundell at the helm of the Scottish Office and Labour sitting on their hands. Pleasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 It's going to be in the 2016 manifesto. You did tell us that right? Of course I did - a long time ago as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Of course I did - a long time ago as well... Don't answer the p***k! You'll only get another question!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Couldn't agree more, especially with David "No" Mundell at the helm of the Scottish Office and Labour sitting on their hands. Pleasing. Yip, what a team to defend the Union. Dugdale, Mundell, Ruthie, Rennie (if he's still around). Throw in a possible Andy Burnham & Boris Johnson too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitnail Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Well, I think they need a salesman. Did Labour in 1997 have a coherent set of beliefs? Not that I remember. They were like the SNP are now in a lot of ways. They successfully played the game of being all things to all people, with a vicious cadre of spin doctors and a really tight on message approach to internal discipline, with a leader that performed well in public, and was statesmanlike. Parties that are in power too long eat themselves and are replaced. Happened with the Tories in 97 and happened to Labour in 2010. All of this "Labour are finished" nonsense, is just that. They will be back - and with a centrist populist leader who can carry a country, as Blair did. They have another 5 years to find a proper leader. This is a Ian Duncan Smith/Hague type appointment just now. It's all about positioning for the next guy. I'd like to think behind the scenes they are trying desperately to find a 30 something candidate with potential to guide in an Anthony Joshua type way. Completely agreed, the Labour and Tories have been written off countless of times and always pulled through. In my opinion Labour should focus on being a genuinely social democratic party, abandon the pretense of becoming "hard left" again, and follow socially liberal polices such as curtailing the surveillance state / reducing military expenditure and cutting Trident. The Tories aren't all that, and can certainly be taken. Labour need to really become more like the SNP (minus the nationalism). Whilst the success is clear now, what isn't so obvious is the huge amount of work behind the scenes in developing the party machine (and crucially) good governance when in power. Labour won't have the chance to build this up to the same extent. But I really hope their house is in order before Boris takes on Tory Leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Of course I did - a long time ago as well... Still standing by this laughable claim? Or do we consign it to the dustbin, like your shrill attempts to pretend Yes were going to win the referendum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Still standing by this laughable claim? Or do we consign it to the dustbin, like your shrill attempts to pretend Yes were going to win the referendum? The option to hold an indyref2 will be in the 2016 manifesto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Well, I think they need a salesman. Did Labour in 1997 have a coherent set of beliefs? Not that I remember. They were like the SNP are now in a lot of ways. They successfully played the game of being all things to all people, with a vicious cadre of spin doctors and a really tight on message approach to internal discipline, with a leader that performed well in public, and was statesmanlike. Parties that are in power too long eat themselves and are replaced. Happened with the Tories in 97 and happened to Labour in 2010. All of this "Labour are finished" nonsense, is just that. They will be back - and with a centrist populist leader who can carry a country, as Blair did. They have another 5 years to find a proper leader. This is a Ian Duncan Smith/Hague type appointment just now. It's all about positioning for the next guy. I'd like to think behind the scenes they are trying desperately to find a 30 something candidate with potential to guide in an Anthony Joshua type way. 1997 was one of those ones where the government had trashed it's reputation for competence so badly that noting Labour did would keep it out of office to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 The option to hold an indyref2 will be in the 2016 manifesto Sorry, do you need a hand moving those goalposts? You claimed that the manifesto would include a commitment to hold a referendum in the next Parliament. Are you now saying you were wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 1997 was one of those ones where the government had trashed it's reputation for competence so badly that noting Labour did would keep it out of office to be fair. Likewise when New Labour died in 2010. It was easy to fall into the trap of thinking in the 90s that Rangers' dominance of Scottish football would continue forever. Celtic were an utter utter shambles and so far behind it wasn't funny. Within a short period they were the bosses, and the blue bigots were the serfs. Labour will return to government within the next 3 elections. Might even be the next one if the Tories tear themselves to shreads over the EU Referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Sorry, do you need a hand moving those goalposts? You claimed that the manifesto would include a commitment to hold a referendum in the next Parliament. Are you now saying you were wrong? I think it will be there - just to keep the batshit tendency happy - it will have so many conditions attached though that it won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I think it will be there - just to keep the batshit tendency happy - it will have so many conditions attached though that it won't happen. There won't be. It will be something along the lines of "We don't rule out the possibility that we might possibly" In the same way as I haven't ruled out the possibility that I might sleep with Pixie Lott this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 There won't be. It will be something along the lines of "We don't rule out the possibility that we might possibly" In the same way as I haven't ruled out the possibility that I might sleep with Pixie Lott this weekend. Much the same thing as I am saying. I think it will be in but so convoluted that it will not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Much the same thing as I am saying. I think it will be in but so convoluted that it will not happen. Well, here we differ is that you seem to be suggesting there will be a commitment to hold one with get out clauses. I don't think there will. I think there will be no commitment to hold one. Just a throwaway line about "We reserve the right to". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elixir Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Has H_B acknowleged his humiliating General Election predictions yet or does he simply have no shame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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