When will indyref2 happen?

[SANTAN]

1 minute ago, Blootoon87 said:

Didn't Stormzy admit to being a troll? Pretty sure he also said he voted leave and remain in the EU referendum as well. Ignore him.

I've trolled before as I'm sure you have. I voted Remain yet have supported Leave for a long time. 

"Ignore him" 

[Guest Jedi]

Still think one of the great 'what if's' of Scottish politics in recent times, was the 'what if' Labour hadn't thrown in their lot with the Tories, and gone in studs up, with them in 2014. Rather, they had either allowed their members a free vote (was never going to happen in fairness), or run a separate Labour for No campaign.

The landscape would be very different today.....Labour at least untainted by guilt by association with the Tories, and the SNP having been in office for 14 years....and the year which has passed. Labour's association with the Tories remains arguably the biggest boost which the Indy campaign has had.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Jedi

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Still think one of the great 'what if's' of Scottish politics in recent times, was the 'what if' Labour hadn't thrown in their lot with the Tories, and gone in studs up, with them in 2014. Rather, they had either allowed their members a free vote (was never going to happen in fairness), or run a separate Labour for No campaign. The landscape would be very different today.....Labour at least untainted by guilt by association with the Tories, and the SNP having been in office for 14 years....and the year which has passed. Labour's association with the Tories remains arguably the biggest boost which the Indy campaign has had.

 

If my auntie had baws . . . 

 

 

It was hard enough getting some in SLab to support Devolution - realms of fantasy to think they would support anything but a unionist position.

 

 

 

[Dan Steele]

5 hours ago, Stormzy said:

 if there was a referendum on the table then I would engage with the debate and process, until then I'll happily laugh at the celebration of polls and enjoy some of the naive optimism shown in this thread. 

Thing is, even without a referendum on the table and with no concerted campaign, polling finds that nearly 60% of those polled are for an independent Scotland. But it's not the polls per se is it? It's the fact that people are clearly thinking about the question of independence, framing it within the current state of the UK and the impact of Brexit and seem to be coming up with the reasoned attitude that Scotland could in fact choose a different path. Your attitude in bold just reflects how many at Westminster view the situation. Which may well be their undoing.

[SANTAN]

23 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Still think one of the great 'what if's' of Scottish politics in recent times, was the 'what if' Labour hadn't thrown in their lot with the Tories, and gone in studs up, with them in 2014. Rather, they had either allowed their members a free vote (was never going to happen in fairness), or run a separate Labour for No campaign.

The landscape would be very different today.....Labour at least untainted by guilt by association with the Tories, and the SNP having been in office for 14 years....and the year which has passed. Labour's association with the Tories remains arguably the biggest boost which the Indy campaign has had.

Excellent post. 

As a Unionist the destruction of Scottish Labour is annoying for me. I would see myself as a centrist that would happily vote Labour over Conservative generally speaking but I am put in the position where I need to vote for Conservatives to protect the Union as I can't trust that Labour will do so and there's a lot of Scottish people that have been put into that awkward position also and I fully appreciate that some Scottish people that may be pro Unionist sentiments can't bring themselves to vote for the Tories and have therefore opted for SNP or Lib Dems/Greens whilst also not being fully in support of SI. 

If Labour supported Indy I think we may have seen it by now. 

 

[SANTAN]

7 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

Thing is, even without a referendum on the table and with no concerted campaign, polling finds that nearly 60% of those polled are for an independent Scotland. But it's not the polls per se is it? It's the fact that people are clearly thinking about the question of independence, framing it within the current state of the UK and the impact of Brexit and seem to be coming up with the reasoned attitude that Scotland could in fact choose a different path. Your attitude in bold just reflects how many at Westminster view the situation. Which may well be their undoing.

You could be correct. I personally think people are only expressing a quick poll worthy answer rather than how they would necessarily vote in an actual referendum, the whole lead with the heart over the brain conundrum but I acknowledge I might be wrong. We shall see. 

[John Lambies Doos]

If my auntie had baws . . . 
It was hard enough getting some in SLab to support Devolution - realms of fantasy to think they would support anything but a unionist position.
 

I'm not sure, if history has shown us anything it's that incessant losers tend to change sides

[GTG_03]

1 minute ago, John Lambies Doos said:

13 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

If my auntie had baws . . . 
It was hard enough getting some in SLab to support Devolution - realms of fantasy to think they would support anything but a unionist position.
 

I'm not sure, if history has shown us anything it's that incessant losers tend to change sides

Can't see it, labour could be polling single digits and they'd still be shouting about devomax. It's in their DNA now and they think the public are too stupid to remember that they shat all over the devolution talks straight after the referendum.

[Guest Jedi]

Dont think Lab will move to supporting Indy at any point either. The biggest problem they have of course, is that the Tories have pretty much hoovered up the hard Unionist vote-Lab will never be able to 'out-union' the Tories,so as long as Scottish politics centres around the constitution, room for Lab's more traditional territory-social justice, public services, higher taxes for the rich, expansion of public spending etc....remains squeezed.

[John Lambies Doos]

Can't see it, labour could be polling single digits and they'd still be shouting about devomax. It's in their DNA now and they think the public are too stupid to remember that they shat all over the devolution talks straight after the referendum.

Yeh, perhaps the branch office won't, but you may find some high level defectors when the penny finally drops

[SANTAN]

32 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

There's a few things I would like to question about what you've said here. The first is that you're a frustrated Labour voter who feels they have no option but to vote conservative because you can't trust Labour to be unionist, while also casting doubt on Labour ever coming out in support of independence. Quite apart from the independence debate, this seems like an odd contradiction. It's probably reasonable to say under FPTP, the UK will remain a majority conservative government for the majority of the time for the rest of your working life, so on that basis I have to ask what the union means to you, if it isn't all the usual things we want from the parties with the policies closest to our affinities? Because if it's something a bit harder to define, a feeling, you've been quite dismissive of that from people explaining that from the opposite side of the debate from you.

On the other point of the SNP harbouring 'shy unionists' I think this was true in recent elections, but John Curtice says that the pro-independence vote and the SNP vote now largely aligns:

https://whatscotlandthinks.org/2020/11/the-changed-foundations-of-snp-support/

 

I appreciate your sincere attempts to debate but I'll be brutally honest, I'm too pished to adequately respond right  now, I will do so tomorrow but please appreciate 90% of my dismissive takes occur when people do similar to my points and disregard them instantly as they perceive me in a certain fashion, for those people I will always respond as equally crudely or dismissive but I think it's unfair to say that I am so with sincere debates. 

[The_Kincardine]

On 06/12/2020 at 12:37, Stormzy said:

You're such a back up dancer btw. Certainly one of those obviously not very bright posters. You can tell even your pro Indy pals on here cringe when you try and get involved. 

 

On 06/12/2020 at 13:07, John Lambies Doos said:

I'm actually quite balanced tbf, ask @Kincardine.   But he's absolutely destroying your assertion that people's opinions can't change over time. Clear as glass m8

I've given this thread a bit of a swerve lately but am happy to confirm that JLD is almost always wrong but agreeably so and that his assertion, "I'm actually quite balanced" is correct.

There are plenty of obdurate  Natters on the thread.  JLD isn't one of them.

[SANTAN]

Just now, The_Kincardine said:

 

I've given this thread a bit of a swerve lately but am happy to confirm that JLD is almost always wrong but agreeably so and that his assertion, "I'm actually quite balanced" is correct.

There are plenty of obdurate  Natters on the thread.  JLD isn't one of them.

I've come round to the same conclusion as yourself and to be fair you may have missed it  but I did apologise for the post in which you quoted. 

[John Lambies Doos]

I've given this thread a bit of a swerve lately but am happy to confirm that JLD is almost always wrong but agreeably so and that his assertion, "I'm actually quite balanced" is correct.
There are plenty of obdurate  Natters on the thread.  JLD isn't one of them.

Fair play@The_Kincardine. Don't agree with your political views but some of the abuse you get on here is most certainly unmerited.
Happy Christmas m8.

[NotThePars]

19 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Part of me thinks they're just sticking to their winning strategy because its the only way they can get a headline every six weeks when they jolt Gordon Brown's corpse with a car battery.

There is a substantial amount of whinging internally about why the media won't give Labour up here a chance to explain their ambitions.

[Guest Jedi]

Not so sure that the UK is set for majority Conservative rule for the foreseeable Mixu.

Labour under Corbyn, and Labour under Starmer will be very different propositions when it comes to a GE. The difference between a former QC and Director of Public Prosecutions (not to mention soft left) versus a far left ideologue.

I can't see the right wing media being able to go after Starmer in the same way they did Corbyn, and I reckon Starmer will demolish Johnson when it comes to proper public scrutiny, and the glare of a GE.

Also, Brexit will have had nearly 4 years to unravel....chance of the fabled red wall returning next time will make a big difference.Clearly, Lab would also need to win seats in Scotland, but who knows what will be in play here in 2024.

[SANTAN]

14 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Not so sure that the UK is set for majority Conservative rule for the foreseeable Mixu.

Labour under Corbyn, and Labour under Starmer will be very different propositions when it comes to a GE. The difference between a former QC and Director of Public Prosecutions (not to mention soft left) versus a far left ideologue.

I can't see the right wing media being able to go after Starmer in the same way they did Corbyn, and I reckon Starmer will demolish Johnson when it comes to proper public scrutiny, and the glare of a GE.

Also, Brexit will have had nearly 4 years to unravel....chance of the fabled red wall returning next time will make a big difference.Clearly, Lab would also need to win seats in Scotland, but who knows what will be in play here in 2024.

Not that it's worth much but my personal anecdotal hardcore Yoon perspective is I'd never vote for Corbyn but could vote Keir if they confirmed they were deffo pro Union and alright with Brexit however due to the voting system there's no credible Labour candidates in my constituency so I'd be forced to choose Tory/SNP/Lib Dem. 

[Wee-Bey]

Lol, the media will smash Starmer too, they're just waiting for the right time.

He'll get crucified for being head of the CPS and not prosecuting Saville or the muslamic rayguns who abused are girls in Rotherham. A 'human rights lawyer' who wants to let nasty forrins off the hook to rob yer nana.

He'll be asked why he served in Corbyn's shadow cabinet whilst Jezza was planning the next holocaust and why he was trying to ruin are glorious brexit.

He'll also not be facing Johnson, but probably some other cretin, likely Gove, who'll be running as an insurgent against the lefty liberal establishment.

[NotThePars]

20 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Clearly, Lab would also need to win seats in Scotland, but who knows what will be in play here in 2024.

Another scenario less fantastical than this to add to my previous one: The reincarnation of Mary Queen of Scots AND Robert the Bruce.

Edited December 17, 2020 by NotThePars

[Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach]

Looks like the number of tartan gonks is increasing.