renton Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 37 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: The line from the yoonsphere seems to be that there's no evidence Scottish attitudes have changed because the last data point we have is September 18th 2014 and polls don't mean anything. Invite them to support another referendum, to see if attitudes have changed or not.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 How many polls is it to be won when the next referendum gets triggered btw? I'm not very clued up on that part of the debate. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 17IAR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 17 minutes ago, Stormzy said: How many polls is it to be won when the next referendum gets triggered btw? I'm not very clued up on that part of the debate. Seeing as you're not clued up, I think we can all excuse the stupidity of your question. There is no 'trigger mechanism' for a referendum. HTH 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Gordon EF said: Seeing as you're not clued up, I think we can all excuse the stupidity of your question. There is no 'trigger mechanism' for a referendum. HTH Even if all my pals want Indy? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Stormzy said: Even if all my pals want Indy? I mean, I get it. You're now pinning all your hopes on technicalities. But as someone who'd likely describe themselves as a democrat, does it not stick in your throat even slightly to play the sarcasm card in this scenario? For the medium/long term future of the union, do you seriously believe this is an issue that's better ignored than engaged with? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: I mean, I get it. You're now pinning all your hopes on technicalities. But as someone who'd likely describe themselves as a democrat, does it not stick in your throat even slightly to play the sarcasm card in this scenario? For the medium/long term future of the union, do you seriously believe this is an issue that's better ignored than engaged with? I wouldn't define being confident that polls have little value without a referendum on the table as pinning my hopes on technicalities tbf. I don't think there's much to sincerely engage with at the moment. I don't think there should be a referendum any time soon and I believe it's insincere, bad faith arguments that people make regarding the issue (Brexit being the most intellectually dishonest) or the reasoning for having one at any point in the near future, if there was a referendum on the table then I would engage with the debate and process, until then I'll happily laugh at the celebration of polls and enjoy some of the naive optimism shown in this thread. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Stormzy said: I don't think there should be a referendum any time soon Why? 1 minute ago, Stormzy said: I believe it's insincere, bad faith arguments that people make regarding the issue (Brexit being the most intellectually dishonest) or the reasoning for having one at any point in the near future, if there was a referendum on the table then I would engage with the debate and process, until then I'll happily laugh at the celebration of polls and enjoy some of the naive optimism shown in this thread. I want to cut this up but idk where cause it reads like word salad after the brackets but also, uh, why? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAFC. Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Stormzy said: I wouldn't define being confident that polls have little value without a referendum on the table as pinning my hopes on technicalities tbf. I don't think there's much to sincerely engage with at the moment. I don't think there should be a referendum any time soon and I believe it's insincere, bad faith arguments that people make regarding the issue (Brexit being the most intellectually dishonest) or the reasoning for having one at any point in the near future, if there was a referendum on the table then I would engage with the debate and process, until then I'll happily laugh at the celebration of polls and enjoy some of the naive optimism shown in this thread. WTF does that even mean? You are a bit of a cretin. Pro-Indy party gets elected, en masse, for about 6 elections in a row (after 2021) with indy in their manifesto =/= allowing a future referendum. No bother, chump. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 1 minute ago, NotThePars said: Why? I want to cut this up but idk where cause it reads like word salad after the brackets but also, uh, why? I don't think we should constantly have referendums. Why should we have one? Okay, thanks for that, is there a bit in particular you're struggling to understand? You want to know why I find some of the naive optimism funny or you want to know why I don't care too much for the debate until there's a referendum on the table? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 1 minute ago, DAFC. said: WTF does that even mean? You are a bit of a cretin. Pro-Indy party gets elected, en masse, for about 6 elections in a row (after 2021) with indy in their manifesto =/= allowing a future referendum. No bother, chump. People that use the Brexit argument to support their reasoning for having another referendum are being intellectually dishonest as in they know better they're using it to suit their agenda rather than as a sincere point. A cretin... brilliant -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Stormzy said: I wouldn't define being confident that polls have little value without a referendum on the table as pinning my hopes on technicalities tbf. I don't think there's much to sincerely engage with at the moment. I don't think there should be a referendum any time soon and I believe it's insincere, bad faith arguments that people make regarding the issue (Brexit being the most intellectually dishonest) or the reasoning for having one at any point in the near future, if there was a referendum on the table then I would engage with the debate and process, until then I'll happily laugh at the celebration of polls and enjoy some of the naive optimism shown in this thread. It absolutely is a technicality when polls show that the majority want a referendum, the majority would vote Yes in a referendum and the majority intend to vote for a party endorsing both a referendum and a Yes vote in the coming Scottish elections. The bravado of unionists clearly belies what's likely to be a very difficult decision post-May 2021. Keep saying No and all they're doing is kicking the prospect of a referendum they're far more likely to lose down the line or say Yes and gamble they can win. If I was a unionist confident of winning a second referendum, I'd absolutely go with the latter. A second defeat in a decade would be a pretty crushing blow to nationalists. We all know the reason unionists are too scared to support it though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Just now, Gordon EF said: It absolutely is a technicality when polls show that the majority want a referendum, the majority would vote Yes in a referendum and the majority intend to vote for a party endorsing both a referendum and a Yes vote in the coming Scottish elections. The bravado of unionists clearly belies what's likely to be a very difficult decision post-May 2021. Keep saying No and all they're doing is kicking the prospect of a referendum they're far more likely to lose down the line or say Yes and gamble they can win. If I was a unionist confident of winning a second referendum, I'd absolutely go with the latter. A second defeat in a decade would be a pretty crushing blow to nationalists. We all know the reason unionists are too scared to support it though. Do you think people may answer questions on these polls slightly differently if there was a referendum on the table? I don't have a choice in the matter, if there is a referendum I'll do my part, if there isn't I'll stay content like I am now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAFC. Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Just now, Stormzy said: People that use the Brexit argument to support their reasoning for having another referendum are being intellectually dishonest as in they know better they're using it to suit their agenda rather than as a sincere point. A cretin... brilliant Essentially, Scotland being taken out the EU, after voting to Remain (by quite some distance) is not relevant when we are making an ever-growing list of reasons for having a referendum? It's only being used as a gambit? Just accept it and suck it up is what you are saying? Naebor champ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, NotThePars said: I believe it's insincere, bad faith arguments that people make regarding the issue (Brexit being the most intellectually dishonest) or the reasoning for having one at any point in the near future, if there was a referendum on the table then I would engage with the debate and process, It's the commas here that are tricking my brain into thinking it's one point that's doing me in. I'm not criticising (I can't, my grammar is atrocious) I just don't get the middle part of the sentence and its relation to the other points lol. 5 minutes ago, Stormzy said: I don't think we should constantly have referendums. Why should we have one? I do get that but as has been hashed out a million times if the governing party wins on a platform of it then shouldn't we have one? It's lucky Scotland is generally a nation of pretty relaxed politics because that denial of democracy would justify direct action in a lot of places. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Just now, DAFC. said: Essentially, Scotland being taken out the EU, after voting to Remain (by quite some distance) is not relevant when we are making an ever-growing list of reasons for having a referendum? It's only being used as a gambit? Just accept it and suck it up is what you are saying? Naebor champ. I'm still laughing at your cretin post -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Stormzy said: People that use the Brexit argument to support their reasoning for having another referendum are being intellectually dishonest as in they know better they're using it to suit their agenda rather than as a sincere point. A cretin... brilliant Do you not believe that Brexit has materially changed the question? As in, I believe that “should Scotland be an independent country (while the alternative remains within the EU)” is a different question to “should Scotland be an independent country (while the alternative has left the EU)” -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 1 minute ago, NotThePars said: It's the commas here that are tricking my brain into thinking it's one point that's doing me in. I'm not criticising (I can't, my grammar is atrocious) I just don't get the middle part of the sentence and its relation to the other points lol. I do get that but as has been hashed out a million times if the governing party wins on a platform of it then shouldn't we have one? It's lucky Scotland is generally a nation of pretty relaxed politics because that denial of democracy would justify direct action in a lot of places. If you highlight the part I may be able to explain. Aye if the SNP get a majority then they're within their rights to go for one, I'm not someone that's going to kick up a fuss over that however... if Big Bojo also says they can't have one on the basis of the 2014 vote then I'll also accept that position, whilst having sympathy for sincere Indy supporters.. -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said: Do you not believe that Brexit has materially changed the question? As in, I believe that “should Scotland be an independent country (while the alternative remains within the EU)” is a different question to “should Scotland be an independent country (while the alternative has left the EU)” Good post. I like the fact you managed to do this without hysterically insulting me or getting irrationally triggered by me stating my opinion. This next part is the fun part though.. I don't believe that the results of Brexit have materially changed the question or perhaps they have but this was always a potential outcome. When we had the vote in 2014 we were well aware of the rise of UKIP and well aware that in future general elections an EU referendum may be offered in a manifesto by Labour or Tories. (I actively wanted them to do so.) So when we had the debates in 2014 the EU question and debate has retrospectively been changed to one where Conservatives apparantly guaranteed indefinitely remaining in the EU rather than saying that IF SI were to happen that they would have to reapply to join the EU. We all knew this at the time and we knew there was the potential that the UK would vote on this going forward so when I chose to vote against SI i was fully conscious if the UK were to vote for something in the future then i am consenting at that point to vote as part of the UK. The thing that irks me with this discussion the most is when you ask SI supporters if the Conservatives tricked THEM in 2014 re the EU and they all say "of course not" so I don't know who this great deception actually happened to? I also believe it's an argument taken up by people being insincere, would these people actually be content if the UK had remained and would they have stopped pushing for Indy? Of course not! So the idea that these same people are so put out about the EU that we need to have a referendum for their sake doesn't strike me as a sincere argument. Lastly, I know a lot of people that were Remainers that at the same time would definitely not want the break up of the UK on top of that no matter how much they hated the thought of Brexit. Having said all of that, as stated above I wouldn't be against a referendum through SNP majority if the UK government allows it so the whole Brexit issue isn't that much of a big deal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, Stormzy said: Do you think people may answer questions on these polls slightly differently if there was a referendum on the table? Individual polls are a snapshot in time, just as a referendum result is. So of course some people would vote differently in a hypothetical referendum in a years time compared to how they'd answer a poll today because the circumstances would be different. But there's absolutely no doubt every recent poll has been bad news for the unionist side and that's built up a larger fear of the prospect of having a second referendum. There's no guarantee the process of a referendum would pull people towards No. That's not what happened in 2014. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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