When will indyref2 happen?

[Benjamin_Nevis]

It's a quiet confidence Jupe, you're looking at a 3 wood when I'm using a pitching wedge! [emoji6]

Aye but you're going to thin the fucker right through back into the shite behind the green.

[John Lambies Doos]

Red Rob, although a staunch unionist, is a decent poster. At least he sticks to his principles and is mature in response... unlike some other unionist posters on these pages...
Heehawmcminter et al

[McSpreader]

40 minutes ago, Pearbuyerbell said:

Rob is an emotive No voter, we get it, absolutely nothing will change his nationalistic approach to this subject.   Going round in circles for the next three years wont get him to change his mind.   

Moving forward, I was wanting to ask everyone ( including Rob) whether it would be in the best interests of Yes to be a broad church of views, or one singular vision ?   

I'm linking this up from Peter A Bell:  

 

At the time Yes Scotland was set up, I wholly approved of the separation of the SNP and the rest of the Yes movement. I have been forced to reconsider in the light of subsequent developments. Not that I'm saying it was a mistake. At the time, it seemed like the sensible thing to do. And it was probably necessary. Then!

But this is now. The next independence referendum campaign WILL NOT be simply a rerun of the first one. We have the benefit of experience now. It would be stupid not to take advantage of what we have learned - both from our own campaign and from the anti-independence effort. They won. Something they did was effective. Let's learn from that.

With hindsight we can see that the, sometimes very forceful, shunning of the SNP by the rest of the Yes campaign played right into the British establishment's demonising of the party. Because independence is inevitably and irrevocably associated with the SNP, we were effectively asking people to vote for them in one breath and saying we wanted nothing to do with them in the next.

Separating the SNP and the Yes movement was a mistake. It created a weak spot which the British state - ever the masters of divide and rule - were able to take advantage of. With many on the Yes side showing themselves all too willing to be used.

We must not make the same mistake again. The entire Yes campaign must embrace the SNP, not as a political party, but as the de facto political arm of the independence movement.

The British nationalists will attack the SNP because they know that this is the most effective way to undermine the whole independence movement. As they did before, they will completely ignore the other pro-independence parties (OPIP) and organisations such as Labour for Independence and Women for Independence unless and until they can be used against the SNP. They will completely disregard everything people like Patrick Harvie say unless and until they say something that can be spun as a 'blow' to Nicola Sturgeon.

That's realpolitik. We may not like it. But we're not going to change it. Certainly not in time for the coming campaign.

Learning the lessons from all of this we must present a united front. Instead of joining in with the anti-SNP rhetoric, everybody in the Yes campaign should be defending the SNP to the very best of their ability. And if they can't, then they should just keep quiet. It simply makes no sense to damage the tool you need to get the job done.

A lot of people don't like to hear this. Even as I write it, I'm not comfortable with it myself. In normal circumstances this kind of 'devotion' to a political party would be anathema to me. But these are not normal circumstances. So I urge everyone who is unequivocally and unconditionally committed to the cause of independence to avoid the customary knee-jerk reaction and just think about what I'm saying. If bringing our government home is important - which it certainly is - then it is surely worth the relatively small effort - sacrifice, if you will - of putting aside personal animosities, policy agendas and partisan loyalties for a year or so in order to win the prize"  

 

Independence is appealing to lots of No voters, that's for sure, but they don't see the UK or Great Britain as 'The Enemy' like the SNP do.

Until you change the anti-British and anti-English rhetoric you won't get everyone to support the SNP regardless., It just won't happen. 

The SNP are simply too hateful and too divisive and too focused on their own self interests rather than the interests of suffering Scottish voters for many  more reasonable Scots. Wait for the bile and the abuse in reaction to this post and you'll see what I mean. SNP= Seething Nasty p***ks.

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

Independence is appealing to lots of No voters, that's for sure, but they don't see the UK or Great Britain as 'The Enemy' like the SNP do.

Until you change the anti-British and anti-English rhetoric you won't get everyone to support the SNP regardless., It just won't happen. 

The SNP are simply too hateful and too divisive and too focused on their own self interests rather than the interests of suffering Scottish voters for many  more reasonable Scots. Wait for the bile and the abuse in reaction to this post and you'll see what I mean. SNP= Seething Nasty p***ks.

Spewing bile and hatred whilst treating a political union and its people as "the enemy" seemed to work a treat for your lot in the Euroref.

[McSpreader]

15 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Spewing bile and hatred whilst treating a political union and its people as "the enemy" seemed to work a treat for your lot in the Euroref.

I disagree with the premise of  your prejudiced point of view.

Edited January 14, 2017 by McSpreader

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, McSpreader said:

I disagree with the premise of  your prejudiced point of view.

Due to your own prejudice, naturally. When you can point to either the SNP or the wider Yes campaign displaying posters of hordes English people lined up along a road, you might have a modicum of legitimacy. A very small modicum. You might also be able to point to any proposals on limiting the numbers of English people being allowed into Scotland, you anti-European, you.

[RedRob72]

Independence is appealing to lots of No voters, that's for sure, but they don't see the UK or Great Britain as 'The Enemy' like the SNP do.
Until you change the anti-British and anti-English rhetoric you won't get everyone to support the SNP regardless., It just won't happen. 
The SNP are simply too hateful and too divisive and too focused on their own self interests rather than the interests of suffering Scottish voters for many  more reasonable Scots. Wait for the bile and the abuse in reaction to this post and you'll see what I mean. SNP= Seething Nasty p***ks.

I'm sorry, no I'm not sorry, this is on the mark. It's how many of us feel! I don't need convincing, but read Shades75 posts, a contributor that offers consideration, not the usual threatening pish that is so prevalent on here.

[McSpreader]

5 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Due to your own prejudice, naturally. When you can point to either the SNP or the wider Yes campaign displaying posters of hordes English people lined up along a road, you might have a modicum of legitimacy. A very small modicum. You might also be able to point to any proposals on limiting the numbers of English people being allowed into Scotland, you anti-European, you.

You're mixing up two different referendums that were about two completely different subjects.

Btw I voted Leave but I love Europe. The EU political organisation I voted to Leave and the geographical continent of Europe are two completely different entities.

Btw I would hope the English, and their cash,  are more than welcome in Scotland as the cultural and familial links are so inextricably, utterly entwined and symbiotic that to prejudice against the English would be to cut our noses off to spite our faces in spectacular fashion.

 

Edited January 14, 2017 by McSpreader

[Antlion]

13 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

You're mixing up two different referendums that were about two completely different subjects.

Btw I voted Leave but I love Europe. The EU political organisation I voted to Leave and the geographical continent of Europe are two completely different entities.

Btw I would hope the English, and their cash,  are more than welcome in Scotland as the cultural and familial links are so inextricably, utterly entwined and symbiotic that to prejudice against the English would be to cut our noses off to spite our faces in spectacular fashion.

 

Indeed - the EU holds far less power over member states than the UK does over the nations it absorbed. Therefore, if wishing to leave the latter union is down to hating the people of the other nations in it, then leaving the former must be down to absolute, bile-spewing detestation of the people of the other nations in it.

[Ira Gaines]

'Admit' what!? That you lads can drape yourselves in a Saltire or Lion Rampant and claim to be 'more Scottish' than the rest of us!? F*ckin pish!

I pulled you up on caring more about the union on anything else to which you said "fuckin' right". Nothing you say since then means a thing.

[RedRob72]

I pulled you up on caring more about the union on anything else to which you said "fuckin' right". Nothing you say since then means a thing.

You've moved on to getting a zipper in your pants, it's all good![emoji6]

[Pearbuyerbell]

1 hour ago, McSpreader said:

Independence is appealing to lots of No voters, that's for sure, but they don't see the UK or Great Britain as 'The Enemy' like the SNP do.

Until you change the anti-British and anti-English rhetoric you won't get everyone to support the SNP regardless., It just won't happen. 

The SNP are simply too hateful and too divisive and too focused on their own self interests rather than the interests of suffering Scottish voters for many  more reasonable Scots. Wait for the bile and the abuse in reaction to this post and you'll see what I mean. SNP= Seething Nasty p***ks.

Thanks for the reply.   

The only time I encounter anything "anti-English" is whenever I click on unionist FB pages like UAS.   They seem to want to stir up talk of anti-englishness by constantly claiming the SNP and YES voters are anglophobic, without providing any evidence for their claims.   

I've genuinely never experienced someone being verbally abused or being treated differently because they're English.    I've encountered racist behaviour towards Asians from Scots.  

Certain unionists play this anti-English thing like a rape card.    I voted for Brexit, but I doesnt mean I hate the French.    

 

[McSpreader]

1 hour ago, Antlion said:

Indeed - the EU holds far less power over member states than the UK does over the nations it absorbed. Therefore, if wishing to leave the latter union is down to hating the people of the other nations in it, then leaving the former must be down to absolute, bile-spewing detestation of the people of the other nations in it.

But that isn't the motive of the vast majority of Leave voters.....but you've been told that before. Why do Nationalists always conflate every scenario. Is it because their own arguments are often baseless in logic and rooted in prejudice?

Just because Nationalists are full of bile and hate towards Great Britain and want to leave the UK because of that hatred  ( Indy ), please don't conflate that with the Leave voters decision to leave the EU  ( Brexit ) which was based on their concerns with the direction of travel of that entity towards ever closer Union ( Empire /Superpower building)and the lack of control that entails.

The UK, by contrast, is committed to ever lesser Union by devolving more powers and responsibilities away from Central Gov't whilst keeping the trading, legal  and political framework largely intact, or at least in tandem.

[McSpreader]

40 minutes ago, Pearbuyerbell said:

Thanks for the reply.     

I've genuinely never experienced someone being verbally abused or being treated differently because they're English.    I've encountered racist behaviour towards Asians from Scots.  

 

Don't say that.....You'll dispel the carefully crafted myth that only the horrible, xenophobic English behave like that....not us noble Scots!!

[NotThePars]

I don't think people honestly believe that. I accept that Scotland, and in particular Glasgow, has benefitted greatly from the empire but the difference is that I think Scotland as a political entity would attempt to enter the modern world and leave that vile legacy behind. The British state does not hence its ongoing attempt at maintaining its presence as a "Great Power'.

And the difference between Scotland and the UK at large is that the racist morons up here don't have the major parties either fuelling their bigotry or agonising over how much they should fuel their bigotry. And I'm proud of that.

Edited January 14, 2017 by NotThePars

[Antlion]

57 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

But that isn't the motive of the vast majority of Leave voters.....but you've been told that before. Why do Nationalists always conflate every scenario. Is it because their own arguments are often baseless in logic and rooted in prejudice?

Just because Nationalists are full of bile and hate towards Great Britain and want to leave the UK because of that hatred  ( Indy ), please don't conflate that with the Leave voters decision to leave the EU  ( Brexit ) which was based on their concerns with the direction of travel of that entity towards ever closer Union ( Empire /Superpower building)and the lack of control that entails.

The UK, by contrast, is committed to ever lesser Union by devolving more powers and responsibilities away from Central Gov't whilst keeping the trading, legal  and political framework largely intact, or at least in tandem.

And the motive of most Yes voters isn't hatred of the English ... But you've been told that before. Why is it you British Nationalists always conflate every scenario? Is it because your logic is so baseless, hypocritical, and prejudiced?

Just because you're so full of hatred and bile towards Europe and Europeans (to the extent of not even being able to stomach being in a confederation of sovereign states with them), please don't conflate that with the wishes of Yes voters, who were concerned at the UK's direction of travel (superpower; right wing; xenophobic; anti-immigration; post-imperial) and the lack of control that it entails for Scotland.

The EU, by contrast, is a semi-federal Union of independent states, which cannot send its members to war against the will of their democratically-elected representatives, and which cannot impose governments on its member states.

[McSpreader]

12 minutes ago, Antlion said:

And the motive of most Yes voters isn't hatred of the English ... But you've been told that before. Why is it you British Nationalists always conflate every scenario? Is it because your logic is so baseless, hypocritical, and prejudiced?

Just because you're so full of hatred and bile towards Europe and Europeans (to the extent of not even being able to stomach being in a confederation of sovereign states with them), please don't conflate that with the wishes of Yes voters, who were concerned at the UK's direction of travel (superpower; right wing; xenophobic; anti-immigration; post-imperial) and the lack of control that it entails for Scotland.

The EU, by contrast, is a semi-federal Union of independent states, which cannot send its members to war against the will of their democratically-elected representatives, and which cannot impose governments on its member states.

That's plagiarism....you need to develop some original thinking of your own......hard to do when you're a sheep.

Like I said.......and I know you get it really, It's about direction of travel. The EU is heading in the wrong direction. Most people agree with that train of thought hence the victory for Brexit. It must be hard being in the intransigent minority all the time. Kind of makes you bitter, so it would seem from your posts.

[Antlion]

8 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

That's plagiarism....you need to develop some original thinking of your own......hard to do when you're a sheep.

Like I said.......and I know you get it really, It's about direction of travel. The EU is heading in the wrong direction. Most people agree with that train of thought hence the victory for Brexit. It must be hard being in the intransigent minority all the time. Kind of makes you bitter, so it would seem from your posts.

The "direction of travel" you've indicated for the EU (without evidence) is the incorporating, absorbing model of the UK. So you're worried about the EU doing to the UK what the UK has already done to Scotland, despite fully approving what the UK has done to Scotland?

That naturally indicates that your problem is with European people. You're anti-European, and a British supremacist/exceptionalist.

[McSpreader]

46 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

I don't think people honestly believe that. I accept that Scotland, and in particular Glasgow, has benefitted greatly from the empire but the difference is that I think Scotland as a political entity would attempt to enter the modern world and leave that vile legacy behind. The British state does not hence its ongoing attempt at maintaining its presence as a "Great Power'.

And the difference between Scotland and the UK at large is that the racist morons up here don't have the major parties either fuelling their bigotry or agonising over how much they should fuel their bigotry. And I'm proud of that.

That's bullshit. Our history is what it is and can't be airbrushed away by some bleeding hearts.

If anything our history should be embraced because we are not that nation any more, just like all the other empire building nations of way back then . At least Britain enters the modern world NOT in denial.

Scotland is guilty of as much , if not more, bigotry and prejudice than most other places in Europe.

If you are one of these vacuous, pretentious denialists lying to themselves about the virtuous nobility of Scottish folk over all other uk residents based on one referendum because some English/Welsh dared....fucking DARED, to say they have concerns over the EU and over overwhelming , mass immigration then please don't bother replying because you are full of shite to say they have no right to vote that way.

What you are proud of is a fallacy !

[NotThePars]

1 minute ago, McSpreader said:

That's bullshit. Our history is what it is and can't be airbrushed away by some bleeding hearts.

If anything our history should be embraced because we are not that nation any more, just like all the other empire building nations of way back then . At least Britain enters the modern world NOT in denial.

Scotland is guilty of as much , if not more, bigotry and prejudice than most other places in Europe.

If you are one of these vacuous, pretentious denialists lying to themselves about the virtuous nobility of Scottish folk over all other uk residents based on one referendum because some English/Welsh dared....fucking DARED, to say they have concerns over the EU and over overwhelming , mass immigration then please don't bother replying because you are full of shite to say they have no right to vote that way.

What you are proud of is a fallacy !

 

It's nothing to do with denialism you moron.