Second World War 'what if?'....

[BuddieInDundee]

Biggest mistakes as have been said was invading the Soviet union, also declaring war on the US. 'Merica were quite happy to stay the hell out of Europe's war and saw their war as the one in the East.

The thing that would have done for the greater German nation eventually even if no mistakes had bee made was having an empire spread over so many countries, he'd have been lucky to get his 1000 years. 100 at the most before it started crumbling, history dictates.

My cynical view on the Yanks' entrance to the war is that they were waiting until Britian was completely on her knees. The empires of the UK, France etc were probably one of the few obstacles to to America achieving superpower status (that and Communism and Fascism, obviously). The US were always going to intervene in Europe, it wouldn't have been in their interests to have Hitler or Stalin dominate the continent, and they timed their entrance to the European theatre perfectly in that Britain was nearly on the verge of collapse, never mind recovering to run a worldwide empire. The result? The Americans have their own puppet states right on the Soviets' front door and the great European empires eventually break up. American influence thereafter is, well, history.

[welshbairn]

As a lover of WW2 history,alternate history,and sci-fi, can I suggest a wonderful series of books by Harry Turtledove(7 in all) simply called World War.Basically,half way through the war the aliens invaded, causing a bit of a problem for all the combatants. This led to all sorts of weird and wonderful collaborations between enemies who all now had another front to fight,but still kept going with the our "own war"

Very interesting,but does take ages to read the lot.

I've read them - they're entertaining although not exactly well written.

The kicker in it is that the pace of change in the alien race's society was really slow, so they turn up expecting to be fighting knights in armour or whatever. They therefore get a bit of a shock when they end up going up against T34s, Spitfires and eventually A-bombs.

Also turns out that the spice ginger is fatally addictive to them, so half their army ends up out their tits on gingernuts or Crabbie's.

Like I said, not that well written...

The guy Turtledove - he's American so I imagine it's his real name - seems to have made a career out of counterfactual historical fiction. There's other series dealing with the South winning the US Civil War, Japan invading Hawaii and so on.

shuggz, you're a total cnut, and I hate you. On a whim I bought volume 1 for £0.01 plus £2.49 P+P. As Hillonearth says, it's not well written. Well bits are ok, but a decent editor would have cut the 656 fucking pages down to under 200. The sex scenes are excruciatingly awful. But some of the plot lines are a bit intriguing, and you force yourself to keep reading through rambling shite to find out what happens next. Unfortunately you get to the end of the book and you're no wiser. Ginger sniffer that I am, I've just ordered volume 2. My brain is going to be mush by the end.

[dorlomin]

My cynical view on the Yanks' entrance to the war is that they were waiting until Britian was completely on her knees.

Roosevelt did everything he could legally do (and more) to help the UK before the US entered the war. Its people did not want to fight another foreign war, until forced by the Japanese. US forces were actively engaged in the Atlantic long before December 7 1941 and lost a ship, the Reuben James that put itself between a British merchantman and the uboat. The US offered us virtually unlimited supply of weapons at 10% of cost on unlimited credit.

Britain and its Commonwealth, the US and the USSR were all invaluable in crushing Nazism. An empire lost, the spread of global democracy gained. Greatest trade in history.

[Kryptonite]

The biggest mistake is Italy's invasion of Greece.

[Hillonearth]

Roosevelt did everything he could legally do (and more) to help the UK before the US entered the war. Its people did not want to fight another foreign war, until forced by the Japanese. US forces were actively engaged in the Atlantic long before December 7 1941 and lost a ship, the Reuben James that put itself between a British merchantman and the uboat. The US offered us virtually unlimited supply of weapons at 10% of cost on unlimited credit.

Britain and its Commonwealth, the US and the USSR were all invaluable in crushing Nazism. An empire lost, the spread of global democracy gained. Greatest trade in history.

There were really very few truly neutral European countries in WW2 bar Switzerland who as usual were all about the cash.

Sweden, Portugal and to an extent Ireland also bent the rules of neutrality as far as they could in the Allies' favour short of declaring war, while Spain was right behind the Axis from day one,and probably would have formally joined them had they not still been recovering from the effects of the dissatrous civil war just a few years previous.

[Jacksgranda]

There were really very few truly neutral European countries in WW2 bar Switzerland who as usual were all about the cash.

Sweden, Portugal and to an extent Ireland also bent the rules of neutrality as far as they could in the Allies' favour short of declaring war, while Spain was right behind the Axis from day one,and probably would have formally joined them had they not still been recovering from the effects of the dissatrous civil war just a few years previous.

I always thought Portugal (slightly) favoured the Axis rather than us.

[BuddieInDundee]

Roosevelt did everything he could legally do (and more) to help the UK before the US entered the war. Its people did not want to fight another foreign war, until forced by the Japanese. US forces were actively engaged in the Atlantic long before December 7 1941 and lost a ship, the Reuben James that put itself between a British merchantman and the uboat. The US offered us virtually unlimited supply of weapons at 10% of cost on unlimited credit.

Britain and its Commonwealth, the US and the USSR were all invaluable in crushing Nazism. An empire lost, the spread of global democracy gained. Greatest trade in history.

The point you're making is completely true, the States did provide an enormous amount of aid to the British war effort. It was not in their interests for Britain to fall to the Nazis. It was, however, in their interests for Britain's influence in the world to be greatly diminished after the war, and she became a puppet for the US to this very day. Agree or disagree with the cynicism, but Roosevelt wouldn't have been so keen to help if there wasn't something to gain in the long run

[Hillonearth]

I always thought Portugal (slightly) favoured the Axis rather than us.

Surprisingly no. Although Salazar the Portuguese leader during WW2 wasn't a kick in the arse off being a fascist dictator himself, he hated the racist and imperialist aspects of Nazism. Although strongly anti-Communist, he seems to have been on the benevolent and even decent side as far as dictators go, being a university professor who was thrust into the job after a military coup - by all accounts he was genuinely popular rather than feared.

There was an Anglo-Portuguese friendship treaty dating back to 1400-odd that they chose not to break, and when invited into the Axis they said no. By 1942 they'd turned over their airbases in the Azores and Madeira to the Allies for use in convoy protection.

[dorlomin]

Sweden, Portugal and to an extent Ireland also bent the rules of neutrality as far as they could in the Allies' favour short of declaring war, while Spain was right behind the Axis from day one,and probably would have formally joined them had they not still been recovering from the effects of the dissatrous civil war just a few years previous.

Sweden was in a tough position but they were potentially pivotal, they supplied Germany with just under half its iron ore. They allowed German troops to cross their territory to reach Finland from Norway, they also sold machine parts, especially ball bearings after the Schweinfort raid. They were pro allied but are often seen as having dragged their feet a bit with cutting of German iron ore and machine parts.

Portugal was very pro allied. They actively considered joining the war but the decision was that this would bring the much larger Spain into it. They did lease the Azores bases for the allies to use.

Spain sent troops to help the Nazis, sold tungsten at way below the prices the US was offering for it and several times negotiated with the Nazis to join the war, but they kept demanding too much in return.

The other major European neutral was Turkey. They were in negotiations to join the war but it needed aid to bring its army up to modern standards. Before this could happen the sweeping allied victories meant they declared war as a formality.

[Sergeant Wilson]

I didn't know you had to be invited. I thought you just joined in or waited to be invaded.

[SlipperyP]

I didn't know you had to be invited. I thought you just joined in or waited to be invaded.

We're not Barbarians Sarg

The official international protocol for declaring war was defined in the Hague Convention (III) of 1907 on the Opening of Hostilities.

[Jacksgranda]

Surprisingly no. Although Salazar the Portuguese leader during WW2 wasn't a kick in the arse off being a fascist dictator himself, he hated the racist and imperialist aspects of Nazism. Although strongly anti-Communist, he seems to have been on the benevolent and even decent side as far as dictators go, being a university professor who was thrust into the job after a military coup - by all accounts he was genuinely popular rather than feared.

There was an Anglo-Portuguese friendship treaty dating back to 1400-odd that they chose not to break, and when invited into the Axis they said no. By 1942 they'd turned over their airbases in the Azores and Madeira to the Allies for use in convoy protection.

That's the bit that probably confused me, I've always seen him being referred to as a "fascist", so assumed Portugal was pro Axis. (Also the fact they were "neutral" and that they were (and still are, of course ) stuck onto the side of Spain.)

You're never too old to learn!

[~~~]

Until WW2 the American navy was still very young and inexperienced.

[Zanetti]

That's the bit that probably confused me, I've always seen him being referred to as a "fascist", so assumed Portugal was pro Axis. (Also the fact they were "neutral" and that they were (and still are, of course ) stuck onto the side of Spain.)

You're never too old to learn!

Salazar hated Hitler and the nazis and was quite happy to admit that. He did take some of his ideas from Mussolini but he was very critical of fascist Italy too.