Second World War 'what if?'....

[Mr Rational]

Love counter factual history especially Second World War stuff.

So what do you think the biggest mistake of the war was, who made it and what do you think the result have been if it had went the other way?

[SweeperDee]

Germans going baws out against the Russians. That was never going to end well.

[Lyle Lanley]

Germany invading Soviet Union.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

If it was going the other way, definitely Adolf taking cyanide.

[CountyFan]

Germany invading Russia is the biggest military mistake of all time, never mind in WW2.

The Japs attacking Pearl Harbo(u)r when the U.S. was still 'neutral' was pretty fucking dumb too.

But the biggest mistake of the war was actually decades before it; the f**k up at Versailles in 1919. Have you never read AJP Taylor?

[doulikefish]

70 years 2mr that the first nuke was dropped

[Cardinal Richelieu]

70 years 2mr that the first nuke was dropped

Are you in that much of a rush to rattle your posts out?

[doulikefish]

Are you in that much of a rush to rattle your posts out?

Aye

[Mr Rational]

Nope, haven't heard of him.

Hitler done plenty of screw ups, from stopping the panzers at the Aa Canal at Dunkirk, to invading Yugoslavia and Greece which delayed Barbarossa.

The decision to stop the panzers, Rommel wanted to send a reconnoiter in force down into Dunkirk but was ordered not to, Hitler wanted to keep the British Empire intact and was still hopeful of an arrangement at that point. If he had been allowed, the British Army would have been captured lock stock and barrel, we would have had to come to an arrangement....

Which would have allowed the whole Wehrmacht to face Stalin at an earlier stage.

Game over.

[CountyFan]

Nope, haven't heard of him.

Hitler done plenty of screw ups, from stopping the panzers at the Aa Canal at Dunkirk, to invading Yugoslavia and Greece which delayed Barbarossa.

The decision to stop the panzers, Rommel wanted to send a reconnoiter in force down into Dunkirk but was ordered not to, Hitler wanted to keep the British Empire intact and was still hopeful of an arrangement at that point. If he had been allowed, the British Army would have been captured lock stock and barrel, we would have had to come to an arrangement....

Which would have allowed the whole Wehrmacht to face Stalin at an earlier stage.

Game over.

The U.S. was already financing Britain by that point. The war would have been longer, but the outcome was never in doubt.

Couple that with the fact Russia had literally hundreds of millions of soldiers that they cared f**k all about... There is no way the Axis could ever have won the war.

[Ludo*1]

I'm a bit hazy on the subject, but I remember watching something about Pearl Harbour in that if the Japanese spent a little longer bombing it specifically to weaken it rather than going baws oot they could have easily taken out America's plane-carrier units and effectively neutralised America for a good few years rather than just provoking an almost instant American reaction. Someone that knows more than me might be able to comment, but that seemed to me to be a bit of dreadful strategy.

Also, if Hitler was a better pragmatist like his hero and the admittedly, great Otto Von Bismarck, he could have won the war. Fortunately, whilst his baws oot mentalism resulted in millions of unnecessary deaths - it also made him weaker as a leader as he spread himself far too thin when it came to invading countries.

As an aside, I've always been curious between the Hitler - Stalin - Churchill relationship. Really need to read more on that.

[vikingTON]

Perhaps the change of German strategy in the Battle of Britain from targeting airfields to targeting London and major cities, which removed any chance of winning the air superiority needed for an invasion - which likely wouldn't have been a pushover, but far superior to their alternative of leaving one enemy to be bombed while opening two extra fronts.

The invasion of the Soviet Union would have had a fair (maybe 30ish%) chance of succeeding had Hitler not delayed the invasion date by a month to complete the invasion of the Balkans, which served no major purpose other than bailing out the Italians. The German plan had to finish the job in October to prevent the Soviets massively arming themselves over the winter, but despite huge gains the crucial battles hadn't yet been won by then. The two smaller decisions are more decisive for counter-factual history than having the overall plan in the first place.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

Sergeant Wilson being in the wrong place at the wrong time and his dalliance with the Stasi.

[top six next year]

I'm a bit hazy on the subject, but I remember watching something about Pearl Harbour in that if the Japanese spent a little longer bombing it specifically to weaken it rather than going baws oot they could have easily taken out America's plane-carrier units and effectively neutralised America for a good few years rather than just provoking an almost instant American reaction. Someone that knows more than me might be able to comment, but that seemed to me to be a bit of dreadful strategy.

Also, if Hitler was a better pragmatist like his hero and the admittedly, great Otto Von Bismarck, he could have won the war. Fortunately, whilst his baws oot mentalism resulted in millions of unnecessary deaths - it also made him weaker as a leader as he spread himself far too thin when it came to invading countries.

As an aside, I've always been curious between the Hitler - Stalin - Churchill relationship. Really need to read more on that.

The aircraft carriers were out at sea when the Japanese attacked. Good book to read if you're interested in this event is called 'At dawn we slept'.

[CountyFan]

As an aside, I've always been curious between the Hitler - Stalin - Churchill relationship. Really need to read more on that.

My (first) dissertation was on the relationship between Charles de Gaulle and Churchill. Now that was fascinating.

[vikingTON]

Germany invading Russia is the biggest military mistake of all time, never mind in WW2.

The Japs attacking Pearl Harbo(u)r when the U.S. was still 'neutral' was pretty fucking dumb too.

But the biggest mistake of the war was actually decades before it; the f**k up at Versailles in 1919. Have you never read AJP Taylor?

A.J.P. Taylor represents the well-established trope of isolated Brits despairing at the Versailles settlement, starting from about a minute after each successive agreement was actually signed. His books are still influential but he is far from the voice of authority on the topic now.

[Mr Rational]

Hitler nearly did win the war despite himself, and in 1940, the American armed forces were not geared for war. It took them a couple of years to get up to speed and even then, they were using a lot of British items that were indispensable. All American bombers used British bomb aiming equipment till the end of the war for example.

The majority of people polled by Gallup in the states clearly wanted to stay out of another European conflict and when asked specifically stated that they thought Hitler would win it.

He ended up with the old German nightmare, a war on two fronts. If he had knocked us out of at least neutralised us, he would have conquered Russia without doubt.

[LongTimeLurker]

Germany invading Soviet Union.

Truly mental thing to do, but if they had prepared properly for winter combat in the first winter it could have gone differently. The big what ifs for me are the neutrality of Spain and Turkey. Without that Gibraltar would have been completely untenable and Hitler would probably have secured Suez and the Caucasus and Middle East oil fields by 1942, which would have meant no Stalingrad scenario.

[renton]

Perhaps the change of German strategy in the Battle of Britain from targeting airfields to targeting London and major cities, which removed any chance of winning the air superiority needed for an invasion - which likely wouldn't have been a pushover, but far superior to their alternative.

The invasion of the Soviet Union would have had a fair (maybe 30ish%) chance of succeeding had Hitler not delayed the invasion date by a month to complete the invasion of the Balkans, which served no major purpose other than bailing out the Italians. The German plan had to finish the job in October to prevent the Soviets massively arming themselves over the winter, but despite huge gains the crucial battles hadn't yet been won by then. The two smaller decisions are more decisive for counter-factual history than having the overall plan in the first place.

Thing about that is that the Germans never got close to the attrition rate they needed to break the RAF, even when they were hitting the airfields they needed to be shooting down aircraft at something like 3:1 for and never did better than 1.6:1 against. They were never able to make any great inroads into the British command and control facilities and never permanently put an airfield out of commission. As messy as it got, the RAF would've probably held on, regardless of German targets. Switching to London just made it a whole lot easier for the RAF.

Possibly not stopping the Panzers at Dunkirk was a bigger mistake, hard to see Britain hanging on with the army smashed on the beaches of France.

[CountyFan]

A.J.P. Taylor represents the well-established trope of isolated Brits despairing at the Versailles settlement, starting from about a minute after each successive agreement was actually signed. His books are still influential but he is far from the voice of authority on the topic now.

My apologies. After graduating I went on to get a real job instead of hanging around in coffee shops and practicing 'academia'. Forgive me for being rusty.