Second World War 'what if?'....

[flyingrodent]

Can't think of a particular balls-up that might have fundamentally changed the outcome - maybe the axis making such a point of taking Russian cities rather than just cutting them off, which would've been smarter.

Worth pointing out though that Germany attacking Russia wasn't a mistake in WWII - it was the whole point.

Remember, Hitler was after a bajillion square miles of prime farmland for blond-haired, blue-eyed ubermenschen in eastern Europe, and there was no way of getting that while Stalin was around. So, the Soviet Union had to go, as did most of the population living between Germany and Moscow.

[renton]

Truly mental thing to do, but if they had prepared properly for winter combat in the first winter it could have gone differently. The big what ifs for me are the neutrality of Spain and Turkey. Without that Gibraltar would have been completely untenable and Hitler would probably have secured Suez and the Caucasus and Middle East oil fields by 1942, which would have meant no Stalingrad scenario.

British intervention in Greece, as forlorn as it ultimately was probably set the date for the Russian invsion back 6-10 weeks, just long enough to prevent German tanks getting to Moscow before the rains turned the road network to slush and the winter ruined the panzer divisions, Might just have been enough to tip the balance.

[Sergeant Wilson]

It's all water under the bridge, you can look back and laugh now.

[D.A.F.C]

1. Battle of Britain. When Hitler ordered the Luftwaffe to “take out” the Brits, the Luftwaffe sensibly enough began their campaign by trying to destroy the RAF. By the RAF’s admission, they nearly succeeded, in fact they were about two weeks away from pretty much shutting down the RAF and controlling the skies of Britain. Then Hitler got involved and ordered the Luftwaffe to attack the British cities instead, especially London. Which did nothing but piss the British off and freed to RAF to concentrate on regaining control of the skies over Britain. London burned, but German casualties mounted to the point where they had to call off the campaign, and that was that.

2. Cancellation of weapons programs. After the Fall of France in 1940 Hitler was so confident of victory that he cancelled most weapons research programs, insisting that the war could be won with the weapons they had. Two years later when the Germans were being outclassed on all fronts by next-gen Allied weapons, the programs were all frantically restarted. Two years had been lost though, and worse, key engineers and such had died in Russia. Germany did manage to produce some impressive weapons, but never in any quantity and most of them never had the bugs worked out and thus weren’t terribly reliable in practise.

3. Invasion of Russia. There were multiple mistakes made here, just attacking Russia for one was incredibly optimistic. Compounded by a six week delay in the attack so Hitler could pointlessly bail out Mussolini in the Balkans. And then the Germans made no preparations for a long war because Hitler assumed Russia could be completely defeated the first summer. He ordered Leningrad to be surrounded, not captured! And Hitler fatally delayed the push for Moscow by diverting his panzers to the stalled southern front. Unlike in Napoleon’s time, Moscow was the absolute centre of the Russian railroad network, and if the Germans had captured the city and the rail connections south of the city, it would have crippled the Russian war effort.

4. The “No retreat” order. This is Hitler’s biggest mistake in Russia and one of the biggest military blunders of all time. When the war in Russia started going badly during the first winter, Hitler ordered his troops to never retreat under any circumstances. This is insane in general because there’s no point standing your ground if you are outnumbered and getting the crap beat out of you. Doubly insane because the only real advantage the Germans had over the Russians was that the German troops were far more mobile. So it made far more sense to retreat when attacked and then counterattack after he Russians had advanced beyond their supply lines. The one German general with the stones to defy Hitler, Manstein, did this a number of times with devastating effect.

5. Me-262 as a bomber. The Me-262 was a beautiful plane, in some ways a decade or more before its time. It was the world’s first jet interceptor and could fly rings (literally) around the best Allied planes of the time. The Me-262 was conceived, designed, and developed as a jet interceptor, a plane specifically designed to hunt down and destroy Allied planes. Hitler ordered it into full production … as a bomber. His minions nodded, and quietly continued to develop it as an interceptor. Someone tipped Hitler off though, and he made sure it was developed as a bomber. In trial runs few pilots were even able to get their bombs within a mile of the targets. The Me-262 was a complete (and predictable) failure as a bomber. By the time a few Me-262 interceptors saw action they were too few too late to change anything.

6. No women labourers. Did the Nazis use slave labour in their factories because they were mean people? Well, yes, but they were also motivated by a severe shortage of factory labour … because Hitler had decreed that German women were not to do factory work. Millions of American and British women went to work on assembly lines freeing up millions of men for military duty. The Germans suffered terrible manpower shortages during the war, while millions of German women sat at home.

7. War on USA. Hitler declared war on the USA right after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Why? He thought it would be good for morale. (Most of his dumbf*ck ideas were based on thinking like that.) Maybe the USA would have declared war on him anyhow, but it was crazy to simply give Roosevelt what he wanted.

8. More Russian errors. In i942 Hitler ordered his armies to seize the oil fields in the Caucasus and the city of Stalingrad, spreading his armies far too thin. As a result his forces failed to capture the oil fields, and suffered crippling losses at Stalingrad.

9. The Battle of Kursk. At Kursk in 1943 Hitler ordered a massive attack even though the Russians clearly knew he would attack Kursk. The German armies last great offencive flung themselves against massed Russian defenders dug in with huge numbers of anti-tank weapons and legions of modern Russian tanks. It was the biggest tank battle in history, and a crushing defeat for Germany. The battle of Stalingrad guaranteed that Germany was not going to win its war with Russia, Kursk guaranteed that the Russians would win.

10. Battle of the Bulge. Hitler’s last gasp attempt to win the war. He attempted to repeat his success of 1940 by attacking the Allies the exact same way. Even though his forces were vastly smaller, didn’t have the fuel to do the job, and were facing a vastly superior enemy than the French army of 1940. The attack had zero chance of success, it would have been far more sensible to attack the Russians and try to slow down their advance.

[Jarkko Wiss]

I reckon that if Herman Dietrich had trusted Dr. Belloq a bit more it all would have been completely different.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1. Battle of Britain. When Hitler ordered the Luftwaffe to take out the Brits, the Luftwaffe sensibly enough began their campaign by trying to destroy the RAF. By the RAFs admission, they nearly succeeded, in fact they were about two weeks away from pretty much shutting down the RAF and controlling the skies of Britain. Then Hitler got involved and ordered the Luftwaffe to attack the British cities instead, especially London. Which did nothing but piss the British off and freed to RAF to concentrate on regaining control of the skies over Britain. London burned, but German casualties mounted to the point where they had to call off the campaign, and that was that.

2. Cancellation of weapons programs. After the Fall of France in 1940 Hitler was so confident of victory that he cancelled most weapons research programs, insisting that the war could be won with the weapons they had. Two years later when the Germans were being outclassed on all fronts by next-gen Allied weapons, the programs were all frantically restarted. Two years had been lost though, and worse, key engineers and such had died in Russia. Germany did manage to produce some impressive weapons, but never in any quantity and most of them never had the bugs worked out and thus werent terribly reliable in practise.

3. Invasion of Russia. There were multiple mistakes made here, just attacking Russia for one was incredibly optimistic. Compounded by a six week delay in the attack so Hitler could pointlessly bail out Mussolini in the Balkans. And then the Germans made no preparations for a long war because Hitler assumed Russia could be completely defeated the first summer. He ordered Leningrad to be surrounded, not captured! And Hitler fatally delayed the push for Moscow by diverting his panzers to the stalled southern front. Unlike in Napoleons time, Moscow was the absolute centre of the Russian railroad network, and if the Germans had captured the city and the rail connections south of the city, it would have crippled the Russian war effort.

4. The No retreat order. This is Hitlers biggest mistake in Russia and one of the biggest military blunders of all time. When the war in Russia started going badly during the first winter, Hitler ordered his troops to never retreat under any circumstances. This is insane in general because theres no point standing your ground if you are outnumbered and getting the crap beat out of you. Doubly insane because the only real advantage the Germans had over the Russians was that the German troops were far more mobile. So it made far more sense to retreat when attacked and then counterattack after he Russians had advanced beyond their supply lines. The one German general with the stones to defy Hitler, Manstein, did this a number of times with devastating effect.

5. Me-262 as a bomber. The Me-262 was a beautiful plane, in some ways a decade or more before its time. It was the worlds first jet interceptor and could fly rings (literally) around the best Allied planes of the time. The Me-262 was conceived, designed, and developed as a jet interceptor, a plane specifically designed to hunt down and destroy Allied planes. Hitler ordered it into full production as a bomber. His minions nodded, and quietly continued to develop it as an interceptor. Someone tipped Hitler off though, and he made sure it was developed as a bomber. In trial runs few pilots were even able to get their bombs within a mile of the targets. The Me-262 was a complete (and predictable) failure as a bomber. By the time a few Me-262 interceptors saw action they were too few too late to change anything.

6. No women labourers. Did the Nazis use slave labour in their factories because they were mean people? Well, yes, but they were also motivated by a severe shortage of factory labour because Hitler had decreed that German women were not to do factory work. Millions of American and British women went to work on assembly lines freeing up millions of men for military duty. The Germans suffered terrible manpower shortages during the war, while millions of German women sat at home.

7. War on USA. Hitler declared war on the USA right after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Why? He thought it would be good for morale. (Most of his dumbf*ck ideas were based on thinking like that.) Maybe the USA would have declared war on him anyhow, but it was crazy to simply give Roosevelt what he wanted.

8. More Russian errors. In i942 Hitler ordered his armies to seize the oil fields in the Caucasus and the city of Stalingrad, spreading his armies far too thin. As a result his forces failed to capture the oil fields, and suffered crippling losses at Stalingrad.

9. The Battle of Kursk. At Kursk in 1943 Hitler ordered a massive attack even though the Russians clearly knew he would attack Kursk. The German armies last great offencive flung themselves against massed Russian defenders dug in with huge numbers of anti-tank weapons and legions of modern Russian tanks. It was the biggest tank battle in history, and a crushing defeat for Germany. The battle of Stalingrad guaranteed that Germany was not going to win its war with Russia, Kursk guaranteed that the Russians would win.

10. Battle of the Bulge. Hitlers last gasp attempt to win the war. He attempted to repeat his success of 1940 by attacking the Allies the exact same way. Even though his forces were vastly smaller, didnt have the fuel to do the job, and were facing a vastly superior enemy than the French army of 1940. The attack had zero chance of success, it would have been far more sensible to attack the Russians and try to slow down their advance.

I don't remember the war being that long.

[Lyle Lanley]

1. Battle of Britain. When Hitler ordered the Luftwaffe to “take out” the Brits, the Luftwaffe sensibly enough began their campaign by trying to destroy the RAF. By the RAF’s admission, they nearly succeeded, in fact they were about two weeks away from pretty much shutting down the RAF and controlling the skies of Britain. Then Hitler got involved and ordered the Luftwaffe to attack the British cities instead, especially London. Which did nothing but piss the British off and freed to RAF to concentrate on regaining control of the skies over Britain. London burned, but German casualties mounted to the point where they had to call off the campaign, and that was that.

2. Cancellation of weapons programs. After the Fall of France in 1940 Hitler was so confident of victory that he cancelled most weapons research programs, insisting that the war could be won with the weapons they had. Two years later when the Germans were being outclassed on all fronts by next-gen Allied weapons, the programs were all frantically restarted. Two years had been lost though, and worse, key engineers and such had died in Russia. Germany did manage to produce some impressive weapons, but never in any quantity and most of them never had the bugs worked out and thus weren’t terribly reliable in practise.

3. Invasion of Russia. There were multiple mistakes made here, just attacking Russia for one was incredibly optimistic. Compounded by a six week delay in the attack so Hitler could pointlessly bail out Mussolini in the Balkans. And then the Germans made no preparations for a long war because Hitler assumed Russia could be completely defeated the first summer. He ordered Leningrad to be surrounded, not captured! And Hitler fatally delayed the push for Moscow by diverting his panzers to the stalled southern front. Unlike in Napoleon’s time, Moscow was the absolute centre of the Russian railroad network, and if the Germans had captured the city and the rail connections south of the city, it would have crippled the Russian war effort.

4. The “No retreat” order. This is Hitler’s biggest mistake in Russia and one of the biggest military blunders of all time. When the war in Russia started going badly during the first winter, Hitler ordered his troops to never retreat under any circumstances. This is insane in general because there’s no point standing your ground if you are outnumbered and getting the crap beat out of you. Doubly insane because the only real advantage the Germans had over the Russians was that the German troops were far more mobile. So it made far more sense to retreat when attacked and then counterattack after he Russians had advanced beyond their supply lines. The one German general with the stones to defy Hitler, Manstein, did this a number of times with devastating effect.

5. Me-262 as a bomber. The Me-262 was a beautiful plane, in some ways a decade or more before its time. It was the world’s first jet interceptor and could fly rings (literally) around the best Allied planes of the time. The Me-262 was conceived, designed, and developed as a jet interceptor, a plane specifically designed to hunt down and destroy Allied planes. Hitler ordered it into full production … as a bomber. His minions nodded, and quietly continued to develop it as an interceptor. Someone tipped Hitler off though, and he made sure it was developed as a bomber. In trial runs few pilots were even able to get their bombs within a mile of the targets. The Me-262 was a complete (and predictable) failure as a bomber. By the time a few Me-262 interceptors saw action they were too few too late to change anything.

6. No women labourers. Did the Nazis use slave labour in their factories because they were mean people? Well, yes, but they were also motivated by a severe shortage of factory labour … because Hitler had decreed that German women were not to do factory work. Millions of American and British women went to work on assembly lines freeing up millions of men for military duty. The Germans suffered terrible manpower shortages during the war, while millions of German women sat at home.

7. War on USA. Hitler declared war on the USA right after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Why? He thought it would be good for morale. (Most of his dumbf*ck ideas were based on thinking like that.) Maybe the USA would have declared war on him anyhow, but it was crazy to simply give Roosevelt what he wanted.

8. More Russian errors. In i942 Hitler ordered his armies to seize the oil fields in the Caucasus and the city of Stalingrad, spreading his armies far too thin. As a result his forces failed to capture the oil fields, and suffered crippling losses at Stalingrad.

9. The Battle of Kursk. At Kursk in 1943 Hitler ordered a massive attack even though the Russians clearly knew he would attack Kursk. The German armies last great offencive flung themselves against massed Russian defenders dug in with huge numbers of anti-tank weapons and legions of modern Russian tanks. It was the biggest tank battle in history, and a crushing defeat for Germany. The battle of Stalingrad guaranteed that Germany was not going to win its war with Russia, Kursk guaranteed that the Russians would win.

10. Battle of the Bulge. Hitler’s last gasp attempt to win the war. He attempted to repeat his success of 1940 by attacking the Allies the exact same way. Even though his forces were vastly smaller, didn’t have the fuel to do the job, and were facing a vastly superior enemy than the French army of 1940. The attack had zero chance of success, it would have been far more sensible to attack the Russians and try to slow down their advance.

[mizfit]

Often wonder how long it would've taken for the third reich to have been overthrown If Germany had won the war.

[Mr Rational]

Agree on the labour front. You can produce guns or butter but not both and while we made use of every civilian in the war effort, he attempted to preserve the sanctity of 'women in their home life' so they weren't really used in the factories.

He was fearful of public opinion at the start of the war according to Max Hastings in his book, he wanted to preserve the standard of living.

We couldn't give a toss.....

[D.A.F.C]

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Probably the change in plan from attacking the RAF directly both on airfields and trying to destroy radar stations to the "Blitz" of the major cities. Hitler was a fan of "symbolic" attacks over militarily sound strategy throughout the war, and hoped bombing the tits out of the capital would sap morale. An absolute failure of a plan, and one which I believe Goering was equally invested in. It's massively debatable whether or not this would have made a long term difference, as completely subduing the RAF wouldn't be easy, a sea-borne invasion may not have succeeded and the German losses may not have been sustainable. However, fighting a war on two fronts was absolutely ludicrous and doomed to fail.

The Russian invasion was a clusterfuck of epic proportions. The timing was poor and almost entirely dependent on the three Army Groups converging on Moscow in a matter of weeks, a massive task even in ideal conditions. Early progress was ridiculously quick, too quick indeed for supplies to keep pace. Also the atrocities committed by the advancing forces were on a level not yet seen. Germans considered eastern europeans sub-human, and treated them as such. Russians adopted a "scorched earth" policy, leaving the Germans massively dependent on supply lines. IIRC rail supply was near impossible due to the different gauge sizes. By the time you throw in the atrocious weather, the whole thing was a disaster.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Russia's two worst winters on record came during The invasions of Napoleon and Hitler.

As for the failure to implement new weapons technology, I'd consider the opposite. Hitler was obsessed with "super weapons" to the detriment of ensuring they were adequately supplied with run of the mill stuff. Germany's failure to develop and mass produce a reliable heavy bomber was another f**k up. They general used Heinkel HE-111s which carried comparatively limited payloads.

Germany basically "Hibsed" it during the Second World War.

[THE KING]

I'm a bit hazy on the subject, but I remember watching something about Pearl Harbour in that if the Japanese spent a little longer bombing it specifically to weaken it rather than going baws oot they could have easily taken out America's plane-carrier units and effectively neutralised America for a good few years rather than just provoking an almost instant American reaction. Someone that knows more than me might be able to comment, but that seemed to me to be a bit of dreadful strategy.

Also, if Hitler was a better pragmatist like his hero and the admittedly, great Otto Von Bismarck, he could have won the war. Fortunately, whilst his baws oot mentalism resulted in millions of unnecessary deaths - it also made him weaker as a leader as he spread himself far too thin when it came to invading countries.

As an aside, I've always been curious between the Hitler - Stalin - Churchill relationship. Really need to read more on that.

The Japanese thinking they were superior to the U.S. , until they got to Midway.

[Newbornbairn]

I read an interesting piece years ago where they examined how a German invasion of Britain would have panned out, assuming being able to hold off the RAF. In the late 60s/early 70s they wargamed it using surviving German and British officers who had held significant positions in 1940. They used only the information that was available to each side at the time.

In every single exercise, the Germans lost. They always landed successfully and got a few miles inland but the British plan was to defend in depth. The whole south of England was studded with pillboxes and bunkers - every single town, village and hamlet was defended. The purpose was to draw more and more German troops in, all needing supplied across the English Channel. At a given command, the Home Fleet was to charge down from the North whilst the Med Fleet and any other available ships swept up from the South in a virtual suicide mission in the face of the Luftwaffe, but one that utterly destroyed the German transports carrying food, supplies and reinforcements. With their supply lines cut off, the German army in Britain would have been starved into surrender.

Found a reference to it here - http://s134542708.websitehome.co.uk/pillboxes/html/german_invasion_plans.html

There a two schools of thought on how successful a German Invasion would have been had the RAF been defeated.

The first is that a German invasion, even with air superiority would have probably failed. In 1974 a wargame was played at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. The wargame involved a number of senior military men from both sides including Adolf Galland the famous Luftwaffe fighter ace and Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris. It presumed that the Luftwaffe has not yet won air supremacy and utilised previously unpublished Admiralty weather records for September 1940.

Even without air supremacy the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England using a minefield screen in the English Channel to protect the initial landings from the Royal Navy. However, after a few days, the Royal Navy was able to cut off supplies from the German beachhead, isolating them and forcing their surrender.

The second is that , with the Luftwaffe dominating british skies, they would have been able to target oil refineries, industry and ports relatively unimpeded. Combined with a blockade by U-Boats Britain would have been starved either into surrender or a negotiated peace with Nazi Germany.

[Mr Rational]

Operation Sea Lion by Peter Fleming is a great read if you are interested in the thinking that was going on at the time. He wrote it in the 60's and had quite a fair bit of access to politicians who would have made the actual decisions on what we would have done if an invasion had happened.

Oh yeah, Churchill would have used mustard gas on the beaches no doubt about it. He had it stockpiled and was waiting.....

[Enigma]

Japanese thinking on the Second World War was if they could annihilate the US Navy as they had done the Russians in 1905 the American would leave them alone to conquer the Pacific. In reality they'd have had to have matched into Washington DC to beat the Americans.

I think it partly goes back to the warfare conducted in the 1500s in Japan where a warlord's show of strength, such as placing a superior army outside a castle would often result in victory without having to bother actually taking the castle. This is what partially cost them when they tried to invade Korea and China in the late 1500s as they couldn't intimidate native Koreans to surrender and had to take Korea inch by inch. The invasion force was also cut off by their far inferior Navy.

The biggest what if in 20th century history IMO is what would have happened had the Russians won in 1905. Russia would have had hegemony in China and would perhaps never had a revolution. Japan would have been firmly put back in its box, no Pacific war, no economic miracle etc. Russia was back financially by Britain and Europe, Japan by American financial institutions, largely Jewish as they disliked Russian attitudes to the Jewish. It helped shift the financial centre of the world away for London and towards the USA. Consider all that for a moment.

[dorlomin]

In terms of the Balkans they are thought to have had limited impact on the Barbarossa start date. Late rains in Poland and flooding along the rivers would have delayed the start in any case.

For the Battle of Britain the formal plan was to pull the fighters north of the Thames, which would have given them about 20 minutes more flight time to the coast but brought the German fighters to the edge of their range. So long as the British were prepared to abandon airfields in Kent then there was no winning stratagy for the Luftwaffe wrt annihilating the RAF before mid September.

Building up uboots in numbers before the war started, early invading North Africa in strength and taking the Suez thus locking the UK out of the eastern Med and possibly pushing into Iraq is one possible strategy that enhances the Nazi chances of winning.

Had Stalin not killed his entire general staff, that might have made things a bit tougher for Hitler in 41/42.

Had the British realised the P-51 could be adapted into an incredible long range fighter, they and the US could have adopted the massive fighter sweeps ahead of bomber formations that destroyed the Luftwaffe in a few months of early 1944. Obviously early on they would not have had the numeric superiority but pushing this tactic in 42 could have seen the Luftwaffe collapse much earlier and allow the fighters to pursue the "targets of opportunity" that destroyed the German rail network. Also adopting the so called "oil plan", attacking synthetic oil plants much more aggressively much earlier would have also helped deal crippling blows.

[Airdrie Onions]

Reckon we would've won if it wasn't for these mistakes, always next time though lads

[welshbairn]

Russia was back financially by Britain and Europe, Japan by American financial institutions, largely Jewish as they disliked Russian attitudes to the Jewish. It helped shift the financial centre of the world away for London and towards the USA. Consider all that for a moment.

Have to say that although I'm not Jewish myself, I think they're lovely people.

[Enigma]

Have to say that although I'm not Jewish myself, I think they're lovely people.

Jacob Schiff was the guy bought $200million worth of Japanese bonds. Part of his decision to finance Japan during the was was certainly his belief in defeating the nation of the pogrom. It partly helped created a positive stereotype of the Jewish people which some would argue existed in pre WWII Japan.

[tinkerbelle]

If somebody had the balls to waken Hitler on June 6th then things probably could have been very different.

p.s. Who really did win the war? Japan and Germany seem to have done alright for themselves since. Just saying likes.