Better Together - Guaranteed Pensions

[Glenconner]

People didn't believe the devolution scaremongering in 97 because they remembered the previous scaremongering, lies and promises from the 79 referendum.

They'll remember next time, and everything anyone has said is recorded now. It's a lot easier to provide examples today because we aren't relying so much on memory and the impartiality of news corporations.

You'd 3 mainstream parties plus civic Scotland trade unions etc supporting a YES vote in 1997.

The SNP called a referendum for 2014 knowing they could not win.

Crazy self indulgent nonsense to passive the fundy wing that could have crashed the party and the independence movement forever.

Luckily the Labour YES vote moved to the SNP in 2015.

Ex labour voters saved the SNP from itself.

[mjw]

The SNP called a referendum for 2014 knowing they could not win.

Crazy self indulgent nonsense to passive the fundy wing that could have crashed the party and the independence movement forever.

Luckily the Labour YES vote moved to the SNP in 2015.

Ex labour voters saved the SNP from itself.

Was their hand not forced a little by winning a majority in a parliament designed to stop any party winning a majority?

[Glenconner]

Was their hand not forced a little by winning a majority in a parliament designed to stop any party winning a majority?

True although the referendum would probably have been held in 2016, the same day as the Scottish Elections.

The Uber Unionist Tory Ukip Ludge types got what they wanted, a No vote and a Labour wipe out.

A YES vote without the bulk of the Labour and Trade Union movement is a step to far.

Wiping out the Labour MPs like Murphy and Alexander was great vengeance but means feck all in the big scheme of things if nothing happens over the next 5 years.

[mjw]

True although the referendum would probably have been held in 2016, the same day as the Scottish Elections.

The Uber Unionist Tory Ukip Ludge types got what they wanted, a No vote and a Labour wipe out.

A YES vote without the bulk of the Labour and Trade Union movement is a step to far.

Wiping out the Labour MPs like Murphy and Alexander was great vengeance but means feck all in the big scheme of things if nothing happens over the next 5 years.

If the 75% figure for young people intending to vote SNP is any guide then it might be the next generation of voters who bring our independence.

They won't fall for some of the pish that was thrown at us last time.

[Glenconner]

If the 75% figure for young people intending to vote SNP is any guide then it might be the next generation of voters who bring our independence.

They won't fall for some of the pish that was thrown at us last time.

Hmm, not that convinced by demographics.

Oldies die, young become oldies and all vote YES.

YES came close.

With the Labour Movement on board it would have smashed the 50% barrier.

[AUFC90]

There is no. Labour movement in Scotland. They're almost as dead as Rangers.

[mjw]

Hmm, not that convinced by demographics.

Oldies die, young become oldies and all vote YES.

YES came close.

With the Labour Movement on board it would have smashed the 50% barrier.

Jobs and mortgages will definitely sway people's thinking as they get older but hopefully that will be offset by less reliance on old style media.

[vikingTON]

I The SNP are polling 70% plus at the moment in the young voter demographics. This is actually crucial, because the habit of early voting has a tendency to stick over subsequent decades of voting behaviour. They won't necessarily be SNP fanboys for life but they'll in almost all circumstances be open to their arguments and leadership.

The undoubted conservative shift as every generation ages doesn't account for an enormous 70% young SNP vote though - even if a generous conservative shift knocked that down to 50% (two in every seven SNP voters switching), that'd still leave them with untouchable support and a more supposedly radical, younger electorate to campaign towards.

The game in demographic terms is up - only an unravelling of the SNP can prevent their complete dominance of Scottish politics, and it's difficult to see how independence wouldn't ultimately follow from that. The Unionist argument starts at a huge disadvantage.

[Glenconner]

There is no. Labour movement in Scotland. They're almost as dead as Rangers.

The Labour Movement is there okay.

Not to be confused with the Labour Party cadaver.

Interesting times.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

I The SNP are polling 70% plus at the moment in the young voter demographics. This is actually crucial, because the habit of early voting has a tendency to stick over subsequent decades of voting behaviour. They won't necessarily be SNP fanboys for life but they'll in almost all circumstances be open to their arguments and leadership.

The undoubted conservative shift as every generation ages doesn't account for an enormous 70% young SNP vote though - even if a generous conservative shift knocked that down to 50% (two in every seven SNP voters switching), that'd still leave them with untouchable support and a more supposedly radical, younger electorate to campaign towards.

The game in demographic terms is up - only an unravelling of the SNP can prevent their complete dominance of Scottish politics, and it's difficult to see how independence wouldn't ultimately follow from that. The Unionist argument starts at a huge disadvantage.

Not only that - but where on earth can a future Better Together campaign go? They flung everything they could into an ultra negative, miserable campaign painting a bleak, awful future for an independent Scotland compared to the comfy, cosy certainty of bountiful pensions forever, secure house prices and guaranteed job opportunities etc. within the Union, a campaign presented relentlessly almost every day by a mainstream media heavily in favour of a No vote and major figures from all the major parties, and the Lib Dems. If younger people are still Yes in spite of all that, what else can they say to swing them round to No?

[Glenconner]

What is the present SNP policy on the currency?

[HTG]

And as the HMRC jobs go in Cumbernauld, look what happens in Greater London

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/localnews/14028005.HMRC_to_create_2_800_jobs_at_Croydon_tax__super_centre_/

Fide, this is a lot of pish. The Cumbernauld jobs will mostly migrate to Glasgow or Edinburgh. The Croydon jobs are not new jobs they're the centralisation of several other locations.

There are battles to be picked but this isn't anything to do with being anti scotland. It's anti everywhere that isn't a significant population centre.

It absolutely makes Labour look stupid but there will be over a thousand "new" jobs in Glasgow.

HMRC has been slowly decimated in terms of staff numbers over the last 10 years - to the tune of about 45,000 jobs in that time. It's not really any wonder they cannae answer a fuckin phone.

[Antlion]

What is the present SNP policy on the currency?

As far as I'm aware, there isn't one, because a currency policy is inapplicable at the moment (there's no referendum for which a policy must be stated; even the upcoming Holyrood elections have nothing to do with any potential change of currency).

In my opinion, humble as it is, I reckon the SNP, if they want people to swing towards supporting their country's independence, to first make very clear to the people that with the Scotland Bill, devolution is at an end: that's all she wrote. Once those meagre powers are delivered in 2018 or whenever ("faster, safer change" my arse), that will be as "strong" as Holyrood will ever be without independence. Devo Max/Federalism will never, ever, ever happen within the UK, or they would be on their way with this Bill. That should alert the soft "Nos" that they've been sold a pig in a poke, and will disabuse those who want Devo Max of any delusions that it's ever going to happen (if the post-Smith landscape hasn't already).

Meanwhile, they should really be building an effective currency alternative (the Scottish pound?) but retain the first choice of currency union so as not to look like they were in the wrong last time.

[Glenconner]

Soft No's.

I've honestly never met one.

"Yeh, i voted No but i wasn't really sure, maybe next time".

What I'd guess at was from the 2 million No voters was half would probably take up arms against Independence and the other half were counting the pennies.

[Antlion]

Soft No's.

I've honestly never met one.

"Yeh, i voted No but i wasn't really sure, maybe next time".

What I'd guess at was from the 2 million No voters was half would probably take up arms against Independence and the other half were counting the pennies.

I have - most of the people I knew who voted "No" seemed pretty lacklustre about it. I heard from older family members that they were voting "No" because we'd be screwed (Daily Record readers of course) and/or because their pensions would be at risk/all politicians were in it for themselves and we couldn't win. A couple even said "the time isn't right yet, but might be in the future" (which was a pain in the arse).

I never met (though I've seen it from people on Facebook and Twitter) any passionate commitment to all things Britannic, or even any notion that preserving the YOONYUN was something into which one would invest passion. Although I don't exactly move in those circles ...

I'd say the percentage of people willing to take up arms against independence is roughly the same as the percentage who voted against devolution in '97 (31% I think). Beyond that core level of British Nationalists (who would happily see the name Scotland extinguished altogether if it was the only alternative to independence), people are probably fairly open to the idea *if* they can be convinced that we're not going to be attacked by aliens/Russians/our own stupidity.

[strichener]

Fide, this is a lot of pish. The Cumbernauld jobs will mostly migrate to Glasgow or Edinburgh. The Croydon jobs are not new jobs they're the centralisation of several other locations.

There are battles to be picked but this isn't anything to do with being anti scotland. It's anti everywhere that isn't a significant population centre.

It absolutely makes Labour look stupid but there will be over a thousand "new" jobs in Glasgow.

HMRC has been slowly decimated in terms of staff numbers over the last 10 years - to the tune of about 45,000 jobs in that time. It's not really any wonder they cannae answer a fuckin phone.

No that is pish. 2000-3000 jobs will be lost in Scotland.

[Mr Rational]

I've met a fair few soft no's now, they all now realise they were sold a pup. A fair few still aren't convinced about the economy, but they definitely feel cheated by Westminster and would think long and hard before trusting them again.

[HTG]

No that is pish. 2000-3000 jobs will be lost in Scotland.

That's not been confirmed - 2000 was the top line but it's part of a cut of a further 10,000 nationally. Someone needs to pay for Osborne's philosophy. I just hope folk remember this when they try to get any help from any of the public services - they're all being stiffened so no point taking that frustration out on the first one to actually answer.

ETA - whilst there will be jobs going in the central belt they will mainly be through natural wastage. The bulk of losses will surely be Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness rather than Cumbernauld. It's not exactly the most arduous journey from Cumbernauld to Glasgow is it. Not compared to those north of the Tay anyway.

So the direct comparison that somehow thousands of jobs are being created in Croydon at the expense of Cumbernauld is pish. There are plenty of offices getting closed in the South East to make Croydon and Stratford the London equivalents of Glasgow and Edinburgh.

[Antlion]

I've met a fair few soft no's now, they all now realise they were sold a pup. A fair few still aren't convinced about the economy, but they definitely feel cheated by Westminster and would think long and hard before trusting them again.

I genuinely don't understand how anyone could sit back and watch the machinations of Westminster (the amendments to the Scotland bill proposed by Scotland's representatives being shot down my MPs outside of Scotland; the furious, raging invective flung at the "subsidised" scroungers; the EVEL debacle) and still claim to be "proud and patriotic" Scots dedicated to maintaining London rule.

If they still think we're a "family of nations" (something David Cameron even contradicted when he claimed the UK was one single nation at his conference), it must be a family fit for Jeremy Kyle-levels of fuckupery.

[Arthur Orton]

That's not been confirmed - 2000 was the top line but it's part of a cut of a further 10,000 nationally. Someone needs to pay for Osborne's philosophy. I just hope folk remember this when they try to get any help from any of the public services - they're all being stiffened so no point taking that frustration out on the first one to actually answer.

Sorry didn't mean to reddie that

balanced it up elsewhere