parsforlife Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 Historically just about every single club that gets promoted gets bigger crowds. This is especially notable in clubs going up to the national leagues. There is a type of fan who is attracted by ‘the big stage’ You don't get more fans in from the same market you were working in before, promotion opens you up to a different market, one that is bigger than before. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonanist Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 (edited) On 23/09/2020 at 15:13, effeffsee_the2nd said: You don't think the old firm is as big a pull in Livingston? mini Glasgow outside Edinburgh is what it is with diluted weegie accents all round the place . WATP Maybe the ugly genius of the OF is that they never emphasise their geographical location, helping those with no Glasgow connection to identify themselves with those clubs for other reasons. I wonder if Queen of the South broaden their catchment/appeal by not having Dumfries in the name, and East Fife and Ross County bring in a larger support because they're not called Methil or Dingwall and so folk from a wider geographical area can identify with them and be loyal to them. On the other hand, maybe Albion Rovers and East Stirlingshire do worse because their names don't identify with their local communities. Maybe a community club such as Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts could become a district club called Inverkeithing Fife Southern, attract enough support to go full time, and build a nice wee stadium on the site of the former paper mill. Who knows? Edited September 25, 2020 by anonanist Who knows? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutankhamen Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 5 hours ago, parsforlife said: Historically just about every single club that gets promoted gets bigger crowds. This is especially notable in clubs going up to the national leagues. There is a type of fan who is attracted by ‘the big stage’ You don't get more fans in from the same market you were working in before, promotion opens you up to a different market, one that is bigger than before. Although the same fan could also walk away just as easily. Gretna would be the classic case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 40 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said: Although the same fan could also walk away just as easily. Gretna would be the classic case. Yes, just as fans are attracted by promotion, others are put off by relegation. Of course it’s not an exact formula, but long term over a group of fans it does work. The ups and downs of promotion and relegation are long established, . the pyramid is introducing some clubs into the world that most clubs are well used to. Grenta are a very extreme example given how quick their rise and fall happened. It’s normally a lot less dramatic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutankhamen Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, parsforlife said: Yes, just as fans are attracted by promotion, others are put off by relegation. Of course it’s not an exact formula, but long term over a group of fans it does work. The ups and downs of promotion and relegation are long established, . the pyramid is introducing some clubs into the world that most clubs are well used to. Grenta are a very extreme example given how quick their rise and fall happened. It’s normally a lot less dramatic. Btw, regarding LL relegation, do you blame the LL teams for being wary of 2 down. 5 seasons of 2 relegation places and the present LL could be gutted. Edited September 25, 2020 by Tutankhamen 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stag Nation Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 6 hours ago, anonanist said: Maybe the ugly genius of the OF is that they never emphasise their geographical location, helping those with no Glasgow connection to identify themselves with those clubs for other reasons. I wonder if Queen of the South broaden their catchment/appeal by not having Dumfries in the name, and East Fife and Ross County bring in a larger support because they're not called Methil or Dingwall and so folk from a wider geographical area can identify with them and be loyal to them. I think Manchester United disproves that particular theory. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 On 25/09/2020 at 16:15, Stag Nation said: I think Manchester United disproves that particular theory. and Barcelona and real madrid and liverpool bayern munich... what pish gets spouted on this forum -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classick Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 Do you think Scottish clubs should play more games than they play now? Scottish clubs are highly dependent on revenues from fans attending matches, therefore I believe that more games can be good. A 44-match schedule had been used in the Premier League in the past, but it was considered to be too high a number of matches in a league season, therefore I consider 40 matches as the maximum amount of games for the Premier League. Things are different in the lower leagues, since they don't play European football, I think they could potentially play 44 games per league season. More matches would lead to an increase in finances. what's your opinion on this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Classick said: Do you think Scottish clubs should play more games than they play now? Scottish clubs are highly dependent on revenues from fans attending matches, therefore I believe that more games can be good. A 44-match schedule had been used in the Premier League in the past, but it was considered to be too high a number of matches in a league season, therefore I consider 40 matches as the maximum amount of games for the Premier League. Things are different in the lower leagues, since they don't play European football, I think they could potentially play 44 games per league season. More matches would lead to an increase in finances. what's your opinion on this? I think you should introduce domestic cup games into your calculations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grazza Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 On 17/10/2020 at 17:02, Classick said: Do you think Scottish clubs should play more games than they play now? Scottish clubs are highly dependent on revenues from fans attending matches, therefore I believe that more games can be good. A 44-match schedule had been used in the Premier League in the past, but it was considered to be too high a number of matches in a league season, therefore I consider 40 matches as the maximum amount of games for the Premier League. Things are different in the lower leagues, since they don't play European football, I think they could potentially play 44 games per league season. More matches would lead to an increase in finances. what's your opinion on this? The league cup group system has added for 3 extra games for many teams compared to 5 years ago, europa conference league also a reasonable chance the teams outwith Celtic and the Rangers will compete group matches. Only way 40 games would happen would be 14 team league with top 6 and bottom 8 split. Hard for it to be attractive to part time teams especially at national level e.g. Elgin going to Stranraer on a tuesday night and further down the pyramid there is already issues with getting the current number of matches played due to postponements.. so only championship would maybe consider it even then midweek games have significantly lower attendances and extra games.. The championship I think though could benefit but adopting 12 teams and split system that premiership has (though I think increase should mean two automatic relegation spots from championship). 44 games is quite a stretch though and means need to carry bigger squads. 38 games in tier 2 would be ok and post split games would have a lot riding on them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboke Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Something simpler would be good. No split. Fewer divisions. Top division of 10, middle division of 18, bottom division of 18. - 2 relegated from top league, 1 plus play offs to come up. - 2 relegated from middle league, 1 goes into play offs with 3-5 in bottom league. - 2 relegated from bottom league, 1 goes into play offs with runners up of highland and lowland leagues. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, theboke said: Something simpler would be good. No split. Fewer divisions. Top division of 10, middle division of 18, bottom division of 18. - 2 relegated from top league, 1 plus play offs to come up. - 2 relegated from middle league, 1 goes into play offs with 3-5 in bottom league. - 2 relegated from bottom league, 1 goes into play offs with runners up of highland and lowland leagues. "Raise your hands if in favour of reducing the top division and increasing the chance of automatic relegation. Thought not". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classick Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 19 hours ago, theboke said: Something simpler would be good. No split. Fewer divisions. Top division of 10, middle division of 18, bottom division of 18. - 2 relegated from top league, 1 plus play offs to come up. - 2 relegated from middle league, 1 goes into play offs with 3-5 in bottom league. - 2 relegated from bottom league, 1 goes into play offs with runners up of highland and lowland leagues. The relegation ratio from the top division is massive (2-3 possible relegations). In a league of 10 there should be just one relegation, but then the number of promotions from the league below of 18 teams would be too low. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grazza Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 On 17/01/2021 at 13:21, theboke said: Something simpler would be good. No split. Fewer divisions. Top division of 10, middle division of 18, bottom division of 18. - 2 relegated from top league, 1 plus play offs to come up. - 2 relegated from middle league, 1 goes into play offs with 3-5 in bottom league. - 2 relegated from bottom league, 1 goes into play offs with runners up of highland and lowland leagues. 2nd tier of 18 is a lot even with 10 team top flight. At that stage I think teams a few teams Ayr, Morton, QOTS, Raith, ICT, Partick and Falkirk have a longer think about remaining full time clubs. Only needing to be in top 15 to stay up doesn't really give that emphasis in competition to improve. 2nd tier is the most important in any system and depends what we want out of it. I would like something that allows sustainable competitiveness with a mainly full time league with well ran/ ambitions part time clubs able to make the step up. At most I think we can add 2 more it may add a little bit more incentive for the likes of Airdrie, Cove, Clyde to have full time ambitions but not dilute the league to being mostly part time which causes what I suggest above. A 12 team split in tier 2 would work well with play off and relegation run ins. I do like the amount you have getting relegated from each league though top flight realistically I think 2 going down automatically and play offs only involving tier 2 teams is best we can hope for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Historically just about every single club that gets promoted gets bigger crowds. This is especially notable in clubs going up to the national leagues. There is a type of fan who is attracted by ‘the big stage’ You don't get more fans in from the same market you were working in before, promotion opens you up to a different market, one that is bigger than before. There will be some genuine “new fans” but a lot of the increase in attendances will be people who previously went once in a while going quite often and people who previously went quite often getting season tickets.Getting relegated can reverse the process but staying up for a protracted length of time can see the novelty wear off and see the reversal happen anyway Hamilton got the same crowds last season as they did in 2008 in the championship 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 32 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: There will be some genuine “new fans” but a lot of the increase in attendances will be people who previously went once in a while going quite often and people who previously went quite often getting season tickets. Getting relegated can reverse the process but staying up for a protracted length of time can see the novelty wear off and see the reversal happen anyway Hamilton got the same crowds last season as they did in 2008 in the championship Obviously it’s a progress, the regulars who become season ticket holders, the once a season who becomes a regular, the casual observer who starts turning up for big games, it adds up to a lot. When the step is as significant as lowland to league 2 fans may well skip a stage or two in the process. Your Hamilton point, having the same crowds despite stagnation in the premiership attracted the same crowds as the best they could hope for in the league below. There isn’t an exact formula, but playing in a higher league pretty much universally attracts bigger crowds, you need the media profile to get into the heads of many. There are plenty who have no idea of matches happening on their own doorstep but pay attention if they start to see the local team play more recognisable opposition. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboke Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 On 18/01/2021 at 09:06, Classick said: The relegation ratio from the top division is massive (2-3 possible relegations). In a league of 10 there should be just one relegation, but then the number of promotions from the league below of 18 teams would be too low. On 18/01/2021 at 21:29, grazza said: 2nd tier of 18 is a lot even with 10 team top flight. At that stage I think teams a few teams Ayr, Morton, QOTS, Raith, ICT, Partick and Falkirk have a longer think about remaining full time clubs. Only needing to be in top 15 to stay up doesn't really give that emphasis in competition to improve. 2nd tier is the most important in any system and depends what we want out of it. I would like something that allows sustainable competitiveness with a mainly full time league with well ran/ ambitions part time clubs able to make the step up. At most I think we can add 2 more it may add a little bit more incentive for the likes of Airdrie, Cove, Clyde to have full time ambitions but not dilute the league to being mostly part time which causes what I suggest above. A 12 team split in tier 2 would work well with play off and relegation run ins. I do like the amount you have getting relegated from each league though top flight realistically I think 2 going down automatically and play offs only involving tier 2 teams is best we can hope for. Ok - I just meant 2 automatic relegated from top level but can see that wasnae clear. Why not have three divisions then, with a middle 14 that splits however you like, bottom division of 18. So big teams in the middle division can meet 4 times a year to help them stay full time yet bring more wee teams into a higher level and help them develop. A big bottom division to open promotion from lowland, highland up a bit. Gradual increase in size of divisions to keep promotion, relegation ratio sensible. ?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretCEO Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 3 hours ago, theboke said: Ok - I just meant 2 automatic relegated from top level but can see that wasnae clear. Why not have three divisions then, with a middle 14 that splits however you like, bottom division of 18. So big teams in the middle division can meet 4 times a year to help them stay full time yet bring more wee teams into a higher level and help them develop. A big bottom division to open promotion from lowland, highland up a bit. Gradual increase in size of divisions to keep promotion, relegation ratio sensible. ?? By gradual increase you mean promoting more teams into the SPFL year-on-year, or do you mean an SPFL with a 10 team Premier, 14 team Championship, 18 team League One? I like your reasoning for having 14 teams at the second level, but I agree with the poster who said you can't really have so many relegated automatically from a Premier of only 10 teams. I would have a 14 team top level, split at 26 games into a top 6 / bottom 8, playing every team in their section again twice (36 game season for every top 6 team, 40 games for bottom 8 teams). Relegate 13th, 14th of Premier automatically, with 12th going into playoffs against 3rd, 4th, 5th of a 14 team Championship. Championship would do the opposite with the split - top 8 after 26 games play again twice for a 40 game season, bottom 6 do likewise for a 36 game season. That way I think you create a fluid situation between the bottom 8 Premier / top 8 Championship that keeps both of them interesting after the split, and where full time teams are well supported financially in terms of playing against other full timers 4 times a season with big opportunities for promotion. 13th, 14th in Championship relegated automatically, 12th go into playoffs with 3rd, 4th, 5th in an 18 team League One. Bottom 2 of L1 automatically relegated, 3rd bottom goes into 5 team play off with Highland and Lowland 2nd and 3rd place teams, winners of Highland and Lowland promoted automatically. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboke Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Option 2 chief. And scunnered that folk keep seeing other meanings when I write something clear! Don't much like a split in the Premier, but your Premier + Champ top 8 covers most full time teams with space for bigger part timers in the Champ bottom 6. If life worked that way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboke Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Also - too many mouths to feed with 14, 14, 18. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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