League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[SecretCEO]

A 14 team Premiership, 36 games for every team

- 8/6 split after 26 games each:

 

Top 8

- play every team once more, to reach 33 games each

- then a 4/4 split

- 1st-4thplay against one another for a fourth time; 5th-8th play one another for a fourth time: 36 game season per team

- 5th either qualifies for Europe directly, or plays off against 4th, for the final European place depending upon who wins the Scottish Cup;

 

Bottom 6

- play every team twice more, for 10 more games and a 36 game season each

- an additional automatic relegation place to keep things exciting, and to give more clubs a chance at coming up every year (and so relegation is less of a blow).

[Darren44]

Lets borrow the Major League Soccer's System regular season runs from late February or early March to October. Teams are geographically divided into the Eastern and Western Conferences, playing 34 games in an unbalanced schedule. With 27 teams in 2021, each team plays two games, home and away, against every team in its conference and one game against all but four or five of the teams in the opposite conference. The 2020 season was the first season in league history in which teams will not play against every other team in the league. At the end of the regular season, the team with the highest point total is awarded the Supporters' Shield and home-field advantage throughout the playoffs

 

In the 2020 season, the top ten teams from the Eastern Conference and top eight teams from the Western Conference qualified for the playoffs, playing in separate brackets. All rounds were single-match eliminations hosted by the higher seed and there was no re-seeding in subsequent rounds. Extra time (divided into two 15-minute periods) and a penalty shoot-out were used if the teams were still tied.

The teams ranked 7th through 10th in the Eastern Conference competed in a play-in round, to join the top six seeds who were given a bye. In the first round, the lowest remaining seed from the play-in round (New England Revolution) played against the Eastern Conference regular-season champions, the Philadelphia Union, while the highest remaining seed from that round (Nashville SC) played against the Conference runners-up, Toronto FC. 3rd place vs 6th place and 4th place vs 5th place were the other first-round pairings. First-round winners advanced to the Conference Semifinals; winners of the Conference Semifinals advanced to the Conference Finals.^[1]

The Western Conference had the top eight teams qualifying. There was no play-in round; the top-seeded team hosted the 8th seed, with 2nd place vs 7th place, 3rd place vs 6th place and 4th place vs 5th place being the other first-round pairings. The first-round winners then advanced to the Conference Semifinals and then the Conference Finals, just like in the East.

The winners of each Conference Finals, Columbus Crew SC and Seattle Sounders FC, then competed in the MLS Cup, a single match hosted by Columbus, the team with the better regular-season record; Columbus won the game and was thus crowned MLS Cup champions.

In the 2019 and 2021 seasons, the top seven teams per conference will qualify for the playoffs. The top-seeded team gets a first-round bye.

The Conference Semifinals and Conference Finals were formerly conducted in a home-and-away, aggregate-goal format. From 2014 to 2018, the away goals rule was used for these rounds.^] In both rounds, the higher-seeded team hosted the second leg. If the teams were tied after two games (180 minutes), the team that scored more goals on the road advanced. If there was still a tie after the away goals rule has been applied, the teams played 30 minutes of extra time (divided into two 15-minute periods), followed by a penalty shoot-out if necessary. The away goals rule did not apply to goals scored in these extra time periods.

Fourteen teams qualify for the playoffs: the top seven teams from the Eastern Conference and the Western Conference that had earned the best points per game record during the 34-game regular season. The top-seeded team in each conference gets a bye to the conference semifinals, and awaits to host the fourth-fifth seed winner from the first round.

Tie-breaking procedures

If at least two teams finish the regular season with an equal number of points, the following criteria are used to break the tie.

1. most wins
2. goal differential
3. goals scored
4. fewer disciplinary points
5. away goal differential
6. away goals scored
7. home goal differential
8. home goals scored
9. coin toss (2 clubs) or drawing of lots (3 clubs)

Note:

• If two clubs remain tied after another club with the same number of points advances during any step, the tie breaker reverts to step 1 for the two remaining clubs.
• Head-to-head competition results have not been used in tie-breakers since 2012.

[Darren44]

Two League's of 16 clubs with two automatic relegation. Plus two in relegation Play offs.

Example

16 and 15 Automatic relegation

14 and 13 in Play offs with 3,4,5,6,7,8.

STRUCTURE 2022

Scottish Premier 16 clubs

Championship 16 Clubs

League 1 split into groups of 10  Winners of both groups play against each other to decide the Title and promotion to the Championship

Bottom team of each group relegation to the Highland and Low League. 

[St-ow!]

Can't wrap my mind around that first idea you've posted there - might take some work!

For the top division of 16, you could split after 30 games. Then

top 4 play again, home and away.

middle 8 play again, home or away. Team finishing top plays off against 4th for final European place.

bottom 4 play again, home and away.

Same for Championship, but 5th qualifies for promotion playoff.

I like your 2 divisions of 10 for League 1. But might need to promote the champions of each automatically, with 2v3 and 3v2 to keep things interesting (winner plays other winner plays 14th of Championship). Relegate one per L1 division, and 2nd bottom of each play off v 2nd in LL and 2nd in HL.

Edited March 7, 2021 by St-ow!

[Trackdaybob]

On 05/03/2021 at 10:03, Darren44 said:

Lets borrow the Major League Soccer's System

Let's no bother. 

[SecretCEO]

14 hours ago, St-ow! said:

Can't wrap my mind around that first idea you've posted there - might take some work!

For the top division of 16, you could split after 30 games. Then

top 4 play again, home and away.

middle 8 play again, home or away. Team finishing top plays off against 4th for final European place.

bottom 4 play again, home and away.

Same for Championship, but 5th qualifies for promotion playoff.

I like your 2 divisions of 10 for League 1. But might need to promote the champions of each automatically, with 2v3 and 3v2 to keep things interesting (winner plays other winner plays 14th of Championship). Relegate one per L1 division, and 2nd bottom of each play off v 2nd in LL and 2nd in HL.

I think your Premiership could take on a bit more of Darren's play off suggestion, in terms of the final European place.

If you think about it, fifth in the Premiership does have quite a good chance of qualifying for Europe directly when one of the top four wins the Scottish Cup. So why not have sixth, seventh, eighth involved in those play offs? Rather than having fifth qualifying directly and other teams facing meaningless games.

The way you've described it, the middle eight would only be playing one another one more time after the split, so single leg play off games to qualify for Europe wouldn't see them playing one another any more than four times in the league season.

[BFTD]

53 minutes ago, SecretCEO said:

I think your Premiership could take on a bit more of Darren's play off suggestion, in terms of the final European place.

If you think about it, fifth in the Premiership does have quite a good chance of qualifying for Europe directly when one of the top four wins the Scottish Cup. So why not have sixth, seventh, eighth involved in those play offs? Rather than having fifth qualifying directly and other teams facing meaningless games.

The way you've described it, the middle eight would only be playing one another one more time after the split, so single leg play off games to qualify for Europe wouldn't see them playing one another any more than four times in the league season.

For the same reason that the European place for the Scottish Cup winners no longer goes to the runners-up if the winners have already qualified through the league - they want the strongest clubs possible to represent Scotland in Europe, in order to improve and maintain our ranking, which will get both Rangers and Celtic into the Champions League. Erm, I mean, to get as many qualifications places for Scottish clubs as possible, and give them the best chance of progression.

In practice, it makes no difference whatsoever for anyone other than Celtgers, as they're all getting humped out in the early rounds. I personally miss the days when Gretna/Falkirk/QoS were losing to Europe's minnows instead of Killie or whoever.

[theboke]

5 hours ago, BFTD said:

For the same reason that the European place for the Scottish Cup winners no longer goes to the runners-up if the winners have already qualified through the league - they want the strongest clubs possible to represent Scotland in Europe, in order to improve and maintain our ranking, which will get both Rangers and Celtic into the Champions League. Erm, I mean, to get as many qualifications places for Scottish clubs as possible, and give them the best chance of progression.

In practice, it makes no difference whatsoever for anyone other than Celtgers, as they're all getting humped out in the early rounds. I personally miss the days when Gretna/Falkirk/QoS were losing to Europe's minnows instead of Killie or whoever.

Well said. As it's the most minor Europa place though I'd make an allowance for keeping the domestic league interesting for supporters and have maybe 6th away to 5th and the winners away to 4th if need be. Winning the um high quality knockout playoffs would be good practice for them to prepare for their upcoming European knockout matches.

[BFTD]

8 minutes ago, theboke said:

Well said. As it's the most minor Europa place though I'd make an allowance for keeping the domestic league interesting for supporters and have maybe 6th away to 5th and the winners away to 4th if need be. Winning the um high quality knockout playoffs would be good practice for them to prepare for their upcoming European knockout matches.

I wouldn't complain but, then again, I'm all in favour of us having play-offs for the league title, out of necessity more than anything else.

[Thistle Scotland Europe]

Here are my big ideas for total Scottish League reform.

This takes in a lot of ideas. That I have put into one post.

It is my all encompassing plan for Scottish football.

So I hope you enjoy reading it.

It covers league re-organisation, cross border cups and colt teams in the lower divisions,

But to achieve these would need Scottish football League re-organisation, 

 The key ideas are; 

1. 16 team Premier

2. Cross border cups, such as an Atlantic League Cup.

3. B sides or colt sides in the lower divisions

4. Create a system that takes advantage of clubs self-interest, but encourages them to develop top Scottish players, without lowering the quality of the first teams in Europe.

 

 

My priorities for Scottish football are;

1: For Scotland to have a strong international team.

2. For Scotland to produce loads of great Scottish players.

3. To ensure Scottish football clubs do well in European and international club trophies.

4. To attract, keep and develop great players to play for Scottish football clubs.

5. For all the Scottish clubs to survive and have potential to do well in the system.

 

What I am against.

1. What I can’t stand is people who do not care about the international team, and only care about their one club side to the point where they would rather Scottish players did not develop, and they would rather Scottish teams did badly in Europe, than their own club finish a handful of places down the league system.

2. If someone does not care about the international team or the performance of Scottish sides in Europe, then why should that person be taken as giving a serious view on what is best for Scottish football? They don’t care.

3. I am not anti-English. But I do not support Scottish sides joining the English league. That would be humiliating for Scottish football. People would think that Scotland is part of England. The top Scottish clubs might do rubbish in the English league, which would be embarrassing to the status of Scottish soccer. They might go decades without winning English trophies. And then loads of people claim that the big Scottish sides would have to start in the bottom tier of English soccer. So Scottish clubs could take decades to make their way up through the English non- league and football league system. Which would leave them ranked below far smaller clubs in terms of success. If someone wants to destroy the status of the Scottish League, and have the biggest Scottish sides playing in the English league. Then they should not be taken seriously as someone who wants the best for Scottish football.

4. I am against people who want Scottish clubs to fail in Europe. If you want other Scottish clubs to fail in Europe. Why should your view be taken seriously on what system would help Scottish football perform better in Europe?

 

Here are my ideas in full.

1. My League re-organisation Plan.

16 Team Premier.

10 Team Championship.

16 Team Scottish League One North,

16 Team Scottish League One South.,  

I think we should have a 16 teams Scottish Premier and cut the number of games down to 30 games a season in the league. That way more Scottish sides would be in the Premier. The first 10 seasons of the Scottish League were played under a system that involved less than 30 games in a league season, for each team.

Plus, more importantly it would free up the schedule to have more cross-border trophies with teams from another country,

With 16 teams in the Scottish Premier, That leaves 26 more sides who are not in the Scottish Premier, but are in the SPFL.

Plus if all Scottish Premier sides were allowed to have colt sides in the SPFL, then, that would mean for instance the 16 Scottish Premier colt sides. That equals 42 sides in the SPFL but not in the Premier.

My idea is that we could have a 10 team second tier, championship,

Then I would have a Scottish League One North, and Scottish League One South., Each containing 16 sides, These would be a mixture colt sides and proper sides, The top sides in League One would have play offs to enter the 10 team Scottish Championship,

 

 

2. Cross border cups, such as an Atlantic League Cup.

I think we should free up the schedule to have cross border cups with teams from other countries.

UEFA have showed they are against cross border leagues in general. But they have allowed cross border cups. UEFA have allowed Scotland to play non-Scottish sides in the Scottish Challenge Cup,

Plus UEFA have allowed the Royal League, a cross border cup between Scandinavian sides,

I think we should have a cross border Atlantic League Cup with sides from other small to medium football powers.

This would be on top of domestic and European football. So on top of domestic football, and on top of the UEFA Champions League, the Europa League and the new Europa Conference League.

So an extra trophy on top of that called the Atlantic League Cup,

This should be a group stage trophy for all Scottish Premier sides, With a knockout stage for teams who get through the group stages.

We could invite teams in from nations such as Poland, Switzerland, Slovakia, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Greece, Portugal, the Netherlands, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, Wales, Austria, Lithuania, Norway, Finland, Bulgaria, Armenia, Georgia, Cyprus, or the Czech Republic.

We could even invite sides in from Russia, Turkey, France, the Ukraine, or Belarus, and other European nations.

As long as we get 3 or 4 countries of a decent size I think it would be worth it,

This is where I get even more ambitious.

How about inviting in African sides, or Asian sides?

In the rugby  PRO 14 South African sides played club sides from Scotland, Wales Italy and Ireland.

So if it is possible for rugby clubs to travel great distances why can’t football sides,

Africa is on the same time zone as much of Europe.

I would love Nigerian, South African, Moroccan, and Egyptian sides to be invited into the Atlantic League Cup to play Scottish sides,

African football is of a high standard and I bet they would love to play the big clubs from the medium football powers of Europe,

Maybe we could even play club sides from China, Korea, the Middle East, and Japan. If clubs can travel from Korea to the Middle East, why can’t Scottish sides do similar trips? ,

It would be cool to have games like Aberdeen v Basel, Glasgow Celtic v Copenhagen, Glasgow Rangers v AEK Athens, Ajax v Ross County, Porto v Dundee United, Heart of Midlothian v Legia Warsaw, Hibernian v AIK Stockholm.

It would involve Scotland trying to create a trophy that allows Scotland to compete with the bigger nations

 

We need to create a system that ensures the national teams to well, that ensures top players come to and develop in Scotland. But also where Scottish clubs continue to do well in Europe and international competitions ,

We need a system that takes advantage of self-preservation, of big sides.

 

3. B teams or colt teams in the lower divisions.

The purpose of sticking the big side’s colt teams in the lower divisions, is simply to ensure that the big sides develop. I would love all Scottish Premier sides or the big 7 sides Celtic, Rangers, Hibernian, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United and Motherwell to play colt sides in the lower divisions.

I do not support the Old Firm, except in Europe.

The reason I want the Old Firm and other big Scottish sides to have colt teams in the lower division is simply 110% because I want all the great Scottish players to develop to maximise their potential,

It is nothing to do with wanting Celtic or Rangers to win League One or League Two.

It does not destroy the lower leagues to have Rangers Colts and Celtic Colts playing in League One or League Two. It would not humiliate these clubs. It is not about disrespecting the lower divisions clubs. It is a massive compliment to the lower divisions to say that League One and League Two would be a great level to develop young Scottish players.

What annoys me is the type of annoying fan who wants half the SPFL clubs to be chucked out of the SPFL on the basis that they do nothing for the Scottish game. Then the next minute that same person thinks it is massive insult to have colt sides playing these sides.

Let me re-iterate I love all the SPFL sides. I want them all to continue and grow. But I think colt sides playing these sides is a compliment to those sides. It shows they have a purpose for being teams to play for the colt sides.  

They allow B or Colt teams to play in the lower divisions in Spain, Croatia, Germany, France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

Croatia is the big one for me. It is notable that Croatia is smaller than Scotland, yet reached the last World Cup Final. I think this is because all their players get maximised to play competitive football at a young age.

Some people will angry that part time or semi-pro sides will finish a few places lower in the league because of this idea. But that is selfish. How can you put your club finishing a few places higher in League One or League Two above the ability of the big sides to develop young Scottish players? That shows you put your own club above Scotland developing good players. That is a disgrace. The Scotland team is the priority.    

I know one person said it is not the job of smaller clubs to help develop Rangers and Celtic youth players, Well that is a disgraceful thing to say. In my view, it is the job of every club in Scottish football to ensure every club can reach it’s maximum potential at developing great Scottish players. If you would rather Scottish players did not develop because you are so self-interested in your own club, then you are a disgrace to the Scottish football system.

Another person said to me, how would you feel if your big side had to play Real Madrid B side.

Honestly my reply has two points.

A) If that was the level we got relegated into, I hardly think playing Real Madrid B side is a humiliation. I would be totally proud to be play Real Madrid’s B side. If that is the level we are relegated to in some European league so be it.,  

B) The fact you think a big foreign side is of the same priority as a big Scottish side, shows you the level of patriotism for Scottish football. It is like saying you would rather a big foreign side does better than a big Scottish side. That sort of attitude is a humiliation to Scottish football.

Another person said that we should just copy English football in what they do. As otherwise they will laugh at us. Well that is utter nonsense. And anyway we used to allow B sides to play proper sides in the old Scottish C Division in the fifties. So does that mean Scottish football was a joke then?

Plus most smaller Scottish clubs are happy for the big sides from foreign countries to send second choice teams for testimonials or friendlies. Yet if we put the B sides of big Scottish sides in the lower division it suddenly becomes a humiliation to their honour to play the B sides of big Scottish sides.  

I cannot see why sticking colt teams in the lower division humiliates smaller clubs. Even if my fave clubs had to play B teams at any level, I would accept that. If it helps Scottish football I would support that.

You will get people who say that if the big sides care so much about Scottish football then they should just stick 11 young Scottish players in their first team to develop great Scottish players. But if they did that they would do rubbish in the league and would get slaughtered in every game in Europe.

Would every part time club in Scotland get rid of all their experienced players, or non-Scottish players?

It is not realistic in the modern age to expect all the Scottish Premier sides to have a team entirely young Scottish players in their first teams,

We need a system that motivates teams to have great first teams sides, that can be made up of foreign players and experienced Scottish players, Having B teams in the lower leagues would ensure that the big Scottish sides could still develop top Scottish players without damaging their chances on Europe,

Some will claim it is unfair that the big Scottish sides might find it easier to get young Scottish players to their team. But that is a nonsense argument. All the clubs will be in the same boat. It is not as if one club in the lower division will be able to get any player they want while other clubs will not.

I would rather a top Scottish young player develops into a great international, at another club, rather than them playing for my fave side and not developing. The priority is what is best for the development of that Scottish player,  

Every non-colt team will be in the same boat., So what is the problem?

 

4. Create a system that takes advantage of clubs self-interest, but encourages them to develop top Scottish players.

Take advantage of club’s self-preservation to develop top Scottish players, while at the same time still doing well in Europe. B sides in the lower leagues is better,

 

 

Thanks. 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Thistle Scotland Europe

[Stag Nation]

13 hours ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said:

Here are my big ideas for total Scottish League reform.

This takes in a lot of ideas. That I have put into one post.

It is my all encompassing plan for Scottish football.

So I hope you enjoy reading it.

It covers league re-organisation, cross border cups and colt teams in the lower divisions,

But to achieve these would need Scottish football League re-organisation, 

 The key ideas are; 

1. 16 team Premier

2. Cross border cups, such as an Atlantic League Cup.

3. B sides or colt sides in the lower divisions

4. Create a system that takes advantage of clubs self-interest, but encourages them to develop top Scottish players, without lowering the quality of the first teams in Europe.

 

 

My priorities for Scottish football are;

1: For Scotland to have a strong international team.

2. For Scotland to produce loads of great Scottish players.

3. To ensure Scottish football clubs do well in European and international club trophies.

4. To attract, keep and develop great players to play for Scottish football clubs.

5. For all the Scottish clubs to survive and have potential to do well in the system.

 

What I am against.

1. What I can’t stand is people who do not care about the international team, and only care about their one club side to the point where they would rather Scottish players did not develop, and they would rather Scottish teams did badly in Europe, than their own club finish a handful of places down the league system.

2. If someone does not care about the international team or the performance of Scottish sides in Europe, then why should that person be taken as giving a serious view on what is best for Scottish football? They don’t care.

3. I am not anti-English. But I do not support Scottish sides joining the English league. That would be humiliating for Scottish football. People would think that Scotland is part of England. The top Scottish clubs might do rubbish in the English league, which would be embarrassing to the status of Scottish soccer. They might go decades without winning English trophies. And then loads of people claim that the big Scottish sides would have to start in the bottom tier of English soccer. So Scottish clubs could take decades to make their way up through the English non- league and football league system. Which would leave them ranked below far smaller clubs in terms of success. If someone wants to destroy the status of the Scottish League, and have the biggest Scottish sides playing in the English league. Then they should not be taken seriously as someone who wants the best for Scottish football.

4. I am against people who want Scottish clubs to fail in Europe. If you want other Scottish clubs to fail in Europe. Why should your view be taken seriously on what system would help Scottish football perform better in Europe?

 

Here are my ideas in full.

1. My League re-organisation Plan.

16 Team Premier.

10 Team Championship.

16 Team Scottish League One North,

16 Team Scottish League One South.,  

I think we should have a 16 teams Scottish Premier and cut the number of games down to 30 games a season in the league. That way more Scottish sides would be in the Premier. The first 10 seasons of the Scottish League were played under a system that involved less than 30 games in a league season, for each team.

Plus, more importantly it would free up the schedule to have more cross-border trophies with teams from another country,

With 16 teams in the Scottish Premier, That leaves 26 more sides who are not in the Scottish Premier, but are in the SPFL.

Plus if all Scottish Premier sides were allowed to have colt sides in the SPFL, then, that would mean for instance the 16 Scottish Premier colt sides. That equals 42 sides in the SPFL but not in the Premier.

My idea is that we could have a 10 team second tier, championship,

Then I would have a Scottish League One North, and Scottish League One South., Each containing 16 sides, These would be a mixture colt sides and proper sides, The top sides in League One would have play offs to enter the 10 team Scottish Championship,

 

 

2. Cross border cups, such as an Atlantic League Cup.

I think we should free up the schedule to have cross border cups with teams from other countries.

UEFA have showed they are against cross border leagues in general. But they have allowed cross border cups. UEFA have allowed Scotland to play non-Scottish sides in the Scottish Challenge Cup,

Plus UEFA have allowed the Royal League, a cross border cup between Scandinavian sides,

I think we should have a cross border Atlantic League Cup with sides from other small to medium football powers.

This would be on top of domestic and European football. So on top of domestic football, and on top of the UEFA Champions League, the Europa League and the new Europa Conference League.

So an extra trophy on top of that called the Atlantic League Cup,

This should be a group stage trophy for all Scottish Premier sides, With a knockout stage for teams who get through the group stages.

We could invite teams in from nations such as Poland, Switzerland, Slovakia, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Greece, Portugal, the Netherlands, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, Wales, Austria, Lithuania, Norway, Finland, Bulgaria, Armenia, Georgia, Cyprus, or the Czech Republic.

We could even invite sides in from Russia, Turkey, France, the Ukraine, or Belarus, and other European nations.

As long as we get 3 or 4 countries of a decent size I think it would be worth it,

This is where I get even more ambitious.

How about inviting in African sides, or Asian sides?

In the rugby  PRO 14 South African sides played club sides from Scotland, Wales Italy and Ireland.

So if it is possible for rugby clubs to travel great distances why can’t football sides,

Africa is on the same time zone as much of Europe.

I would love Nigerian, South African, Moroccan, and Egyptian sides to be invited into the Atlantic League Cup to play Scottish sides,

African football is of a high standard and I bet they would love to play the big clubs from the medium football powers of Europe,

Maybe we could even play club sides from China, Korea, the Middle East, and Japan. If clubs can travel from Korea to the Middle East, why can’t Scottish sides do similar trips? ,

It would be cool to have games like Aberdeen v Basel, Glasgow Celtic v Copenhagen, Glasgow Rangers v AEK Athens, Ajax v Ross County, Porto v Dundee United, Heart of Midlothian v Legia Warsaw, Hibernian v AIK Stockholm.

It would involve Scotland trying to create a trophy that allows Scotland to compete with the bigger nations

 

We need to create a system that ensures the national teams to well, that ensures top players come to and develop in Scotland. But also where Scottish clubs continue to do well in Europe and international competitions ,

We need a system that takes advantage of self-preservation, of big sides.

 

3. B teams or colt teams in the lower divisions.

The purpose of sticking the big side’s colt teams in the lower divisions, is simply to ensure that the big sides develop. I would love all Scottish Premier sides or the big 7 sides Celtic, Rangers, Hibernian, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United and Motherwell to play colt sides in the lower divisions.

I do not support the Old Firm, except in Europe.

The reason I want the Old Firm and other big Scottish sides to have colt teams in the lower division is simply 110% because I want all the great Scottish players to develop to maximise their potential,

It is nothing to do with wanting Celtic or Rangers to win League One or League Two.

It does not destroy the lower leagues to have Rangers Colts and Celtic Colts playing in League One or League Two. It would not humiliate these clubs. It is not about disrespecting the lower divisions clubs. It is a massive compliment to the lower divisions to say that League One and League Two would be a great level to develop young Scottish players.

What annoys me is the type of annoying fan who wants half the SPFL clubs to be chucked out of the SPFL on the basis that they do nothing for the Scottish game. Then the next minute that same person thinks it is massive insult to have colt sides playing these sides.

Let me re-iterate I love all the SPFL sides. I want them all to continue and grow. But I think colt sides playing these sides is a compliment to those sides. It shows they have a purpose for being teams to play for the colt sides.  

They allow B or Colt teams to play in the lower divisions in Spain, Croatia, Germany, France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

Croatia is the big one for me. It is notable that Croatia is smaller than Scotland, yet reached the last World Cup Final. I think this is because all their players get maximised to play competitive football at a young age.

Some people will angry that part time or semi-pro sides will finish a few places lower in the league because of this idea. But that is selfish. How can you put your club finishing a few places higher in League One or League Two above the ability of the big sides to develop young Scottish players? That shows you put your own club above Scotland developing good players. That is a disgrace. The Scotland team is the priority.    

I know one person said it is not the job of smaller clubs to help develop Rangers and Celtic youth players, Well that is a disgraceful thing to say. In my view, it is the job of every club in Scottish football to ensure every club can reach it’s maximum potential at developing great Scottish players. If you would rather Scottish players did not develop because you are so self-interested in your own club, then you are a disgrace to the Scottish football system.

Another person said to me, how would you feel if your big side had to play Real Madrid B side.

Honestly my reply has two points.

A) If that was the level we got relegated into, I hardly think playing Real Madrid B side is a humiliation. I would be totally proud to be play Real Madrid’s B side. If that is the level we are relegated to in some European league so be it.,  

B) The fact you think a big foreign side is of the same priority as a big Scottish side, shows you the level of patriotism for Scottish football. It is like saying you would rather a big foreign side does better than a big Scottish side. That sort of attitude is a humiliation to Scottish football.

Another person said that we should just copy English football in what they do. As otherwise they will laugh at us. Well that is utter nonsense. And anyway we used to allow B sides to play proper sides in the old Scottish C Division in the fifties. So does that mean Scottish football was a joke then?

Plus most smaller Scottish clubs are happy for the big sides from foreign countries to send second choice teams for testimonials or friendlies. Yet if we put the B sides of big Scottish sides in the lower division it suddenly becomes a humiliation to their honour to play the B sides of big Scottish sides.  

I cannot see why sticking colt teams in the lower division humiliates smaller clubs. Even if my fave clubs had to play B teams at any level, I would accept that. If it helps Scottish football I would support that.

You will get people who say that if the big sides care so much about Scottish football then they should just stick 11 young Scottish players in their first team to develop great Scottish players. But if they did that they would do rubbish in the league and would get slaughtered in every game in Europe.

Would every part time club in Scotland get rid of all their experienced players, or non-Scottish players?

It is not realistic in the modern age to expect all the Scottish Premier sides to have a team entirely young Scottish players in their first teams,

We need a system that motivates teams to have great first teams sides, that can be made up of foreign players and experienced Scottish players, Having B teams in the lower leagues would ensure that the big Scottish sides could still develop top Scottish players without damaging their chances on Europe,

Some will claim it is unfair that the big Scottish sides might find it easier to get young Scottish players to their team. But that is a nonsense argument. All the clubs will be in the same boat. It is not as if one club in the lower division will be able to get any player they want while other clubs will not.

I would rather a top Scottish young player develops into a great international, at another club, rather than them playing for my fave side and not developing. The priority is what is best for the development of that Scottish player,  

Every non-colt team will be in the same boat., So what is the problem?

 

4. Create a system that takes advantage of clubs self-interest, but encourages them to develop top Scottish players.

Take advantage of club’s self-preservation to develop top Scottish players, while at the same time still doing well in Europe. B sides in the lower leagues is better,

 

 

Thanks. 

 

When do the schools go back?

[Marten]

14 hours ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said:

Here are my big ideas for total Scottish League reform.

This takes in a lot of ideas. That I have put into one post.

It is my all encompassing plan for Scottish football.

So I hope you enjoy reading it.

It covers league re-organisation, cross border cups and colt teams in the lower divisions,

But to achieve these would need Scottish football League re-organisation, 

 The key ideas are; 

1. 16 team Premier

2. Cross border cups, such as an Atlantic League Cup.

3. B sides or colt sides in the lower divisions

4. Create a system that takes advantage of clubs self-interest, but encourages them to develop top Scottish players, without lowering the quality of the first teams in Europe.

 

 

My priorities for Scottish football are;

1: For Scotland to have a strong international team.

2. For Scotland to produce loads of great Scottish players.

3. To ensure Scottish football clubs do well in European and international club trophies.

4. To attract, keep and develop great players to play for Scottish football clubs.

5. For all the Scottish clubs to survive and have potential to do well in the system.

 

What I am against.

1. What I can’t stand is people who do not care about the international team, and only care about their one club side to the point where they would rather Scottish players did not develop, and they would rather Scottish teams did badly in Europe, than their own club finish a handful of places down the league system.

2. If someone does not care about the international team or the performance of Scottish sides in Europe, then why should that person be taken as giving a serious view on what is best for Scottish football? They don’t care.

3. I am not anti-English. But I do not support Scottish sides joining the English league. That would be humiliating for Scottish football. People would think that Scotland is part of England. The top Scottish clubs might do rubbish in the English league, which would be embarrassing to the status of Scottish soccer. They might go decades without winning English trophies. And then loads of people claim that the big Scottish sides would have to start in the bottom tier of English soccer. So Scottish clubs could take decades to make their way up through the English non- league and football league system. Which would leave them ranked below far smaller clubs in terms of success. If someone wants to destroy the status of the Scottish League, and have the biggest Scottish sides playing in the English league. Then they should not be taken seriously as someone who wants the best for Scottish football.

4. I am against people who want Scottish clubs to fail in Europe. If you want other Scottish clubs to fail in Europe. Why should your view be taken seriously on what system would help Scottish football perform better in Europe?

 

Here are my ideas in full.

1. My League re-organisation Plan.

16 Team Premier.

10 Team Championship.

16 Team Scottish League One North,

16 Team Scottish League One South.,  

I think we should have a 16 teams Scottish Premier and cut the number of games down to 30 games a season in the league. That way more Scottish sides would be in the Premier. The first 10 seasons of the Scottish League were played under a system that involved less than 30 games in a league season, for each team.

Plus, more importantly it would free up the schedule to have more cross-border trophies with teams from another country,

With 16 teams in the Scottish Premier, That leaves 26 more sides who are not in the Scottish Premier, but are in the SPFL.

Plus if all Scottish Premier sides were allowed to have colt sides in the SPFL, then, that would mean for instance the 16 Scottish Premier colt sides. That equals 42 sides in the SPFL but not in the Premier.

My idea is that we could have a 10 team second tier, championship,

Then I would have a Scottish League One North, and Scottish League One South., Each containing 16 sides, These would be a mixture colt sides and proper sides, The top sides in League One would have play offs to enter the 10 team Scottish Championship,

 

 

2. Cross border cups, such as an Atlantic League Cup.

I think we should free up the schedule to have cross border cups with teams from other countries.

UEFA have showed they are against cross border leagues in general. But they have allowed cross border cups. UEFA have allowed Scotland to play non-Scottish sides in the Scottish Challenge Cup,

Plus UEFA have allowed the Royal League, a cross border cup between Scandinavian sides,

I think we should have a cross border Atlantic League Cup with sides from other small to medium football powers.

This would be on top of domestic and European football. So on top of domestic football, and on top of the UEFA Champions League, the Europa League and the new Europa Conference League.

So an extra trophy on top of that called the Atlantic League Cup,

This should be a group stage trophy for all Scottish Premier sides, With a knockout stage for teams who get through the group stages.

We could invite teams in from nations such as Poland, Switzerland, Slovakia, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Greece, Portugal, the Netherlands, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, Wales, Austria, Lithuania, Norway, Finland, Bulgaria, Armenia, Georgia, Cyprus, or the Czech Republic.

We could even invite sides in from Russia, Turkey, France, the Ukraine, or Belarus, and other European nations.

As long as we get 3 or 4 countries of a decent size I think it would be worth it,

This is where I get even more ambitious.

How about inviting in African sides, or Asian sides?

In the rugby  PRO 14 South African sides played club sides from Scotland, Wales Italy and Ireland.

So if it is possible for rugby clubs to travel great distances why can’t football sides,

Africa is on the same time zone as much of Europe.

I would love Nigerian, South African, Moroccan, and Egyptian sides to be invited into the Atlantic League Cup to play Scottish sides,

African football is of a high standard and I bet they would love to play the big clubs from the medium football powers of Europe,

Maybe we could even play club sides from China, Korea, the Middle East, and Japan. If clubs can travel from Korea to the Middle East, why can’t Scottish sides do similar trips? ,

It would be cool to have games like Aberdeen v Basel, Glasgow Celtic v Copenhagen, Glasgow Rangers v AEK Athens, Ajax v Ross County, Porto v Dundee United, Heart of Midlothian v Legia Warsaw, Hibernian v AIK Stockholm.

It would involve Scotland trying to create a trophy that allows Scotland to compete with the bigger nations

 

We need to create a system that ensures the national teams to well, that ensures top players come to and develop in Scotland. But also where Scottish clubs continue to do well in Europe and international competitions ,

We need a system that takes advantage of self-preservation, of big sides.

 

3. B teams or colt teams in the lower divisions.

The purpose of sticking the big side’s colt teams in the lower divisions, is simply to ensure that the big sides develop. I would love all Scottish Premier sides or the big 7 sides Celtic, Rangers, Hibernian, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United and Motherwell to play colt sides in the lower divisions.

I do not support the Old Firm, except in Europe.

The reason I want the Old Firm and other big Scottish sides to have colt teams in the lower division is simply 110% because I want all the great Scottish players to develop to maximise their potential,

It is nothing to do with wanting Celtic or Rangers to win League One or League Two.

It does not destroy the lower leagues to have Rangers Colts and Celtic Colts playing in League One or League Two. It would not humiliate these clubs. It is not about disrespecting the lower divisions clubs. It is a massive compliment to the lower divisions to say that League One and League Two would be a great level to develop young Scottish players.

What annoys me is the type of annoying fan who wants half the SPFL clubs to be chucked out of the SPFL on the basis that they do nothing for the Scottish game. Then the next minute that same person thinks it is massive insult to have colt sides playing these sides.

Let me re-iterate I love all the SPFL sides. I want them all to continue and grow. But I think colt sides playing these sides is a compliment to those sides. It shows they have a purpose for being teams to play for the colt sides.  

They allow B or Colt teams to play in the lower divisions in Spain, Croatia, Germany, France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

Croatia is the big one for me. It is notable that Croatia is smaller than Scotland, yet reached the last World Cup Final. I think this is because all their players get maximised to play competitive football at a young age.

Some people will angry that part time or semi-pro sides will finish a few places lower in the league because of this idea. But that is selfish. How can you put your club finishing a few places higher in League One or League Two above the ability of the big sides to develop young Scottish players? That shows you put your own club above Scotland developing good players. That is a disgrace. The Scotland team is the priority.    

I know one person said it is not the job of smaller clubs to help develop Rangers and Celtic youth players, Well that is a disgraceful thing to say. In my view, it is the job of every club in Scottish football to ensure every club can reach it’s maximum potential at developing great Scottish players. If you would rather Scottish players did not develop because you are so self-interested in your own club, then you are a disgrace to the Scottish football system.

Another person said to me, how would you feel if your big side had to play Real Madrid B side.

Honestly my reply has two points.

A) If that was the level we got relegated into, I hardly think playing Real Madrid B side is a humiliation. I would be totally proud to be play Real Madrid’s B side. If that is the level we are relegated to in some European league so be it.,  

B) The fact you think a big foreign side is of the same priority as a big Scottish side, shows you the level of patriotism for Scottish football. It is like saying you would rather a big foreign side does better than a big Scottish side. That sort of attitude is a humiliation to Scottish football.

Another person said that we should just copy English football in what they do. As otherwise they will laugh at us. Well that is utter nonsense. And anyway we used to allow B sides to play proper sides in the old Scottish C Division in the fifties. So does that mean Scottish football was a joke then?

Plus most smaller Scottish clubs are happy for the big sides from foreign countries to send second choice teams for testimonials or friendlies. Yet if we put the B sides of big Scottish sides in the lower division it suddenly becomes a humiliation to their honour to play the B sides of big Scottish sides.  

I cannot see why sticking colt teams in the lower division humiliates smaller clubs. Even if my fave clubs had to play B teams at any level, I would accept that. If it helps Scottish football I would support that.

You will get people who say that if the big sides care so much about Scottish football then they should just stick 11 young Scottish players in their first team to develop great Scottish players. But if they did that they would do rubbish in the league and would get slaughtered in every game in Europe.

Would every part time club in Scotland get rid of all their experienced players, or non-Scottish players?

It is not realistic in the modern age to expect all the Scottish Premier sides to have a team entirely young Scottish players in their first teams,

We need a system that motivates teams to have great first teams sides, that can be made up of foreign players and experienced Scottish players, Having B teams in the lower leagues would ensure that the big Scottish sides could still develop top Scottish players without damaging their chances on Europe,

Some will claim it is unfair that the big Scottish sides might find it easier to get young Scottish players to their team. But that is a nonsense argument. All the clubs will be in the same boat. It is not as if one club in the lower division will be able to get any player they want while other clubs will not.

I would rather a top Scottish young player develops into a great international, at another club, rather than them playing for my fave side and not developing. The priority is what is best for the development of that Scottish player,  

Every non-colt team will be in the same boat., So what is the problem?

 

4. Create a system that takes advantage of clubs self-interest, but encourages them to develop top Scottish players.

Take advantage of club’s self-preservation to develop top Scottish players, while at the same time still doing well in Europe. B sides in the lower leagues is better,

 

 

Thanks. 

 

I stopped reading when you suggested the awful colt teams idea...

[SecretCEO]

@Thistle Scotland Europe

I enjoyed reading that.

Some well argued ideas.

Liked the Atlantic League Cup, with possibility of African teams being involved: you'll be interesting Mr Doncaster with that one.

Shorter Premier season and more clubs involved; League One North and South. All interesting.

Colts aren't for me, but I admire your patriotism in that context.

Cheers.

[Salvo Montalbano]

16 team league and 30 games - happy to see that but will never happen due to TV people wanting 4 OF* games a season.

Colts - no, no, no, no, NO. None of the things you've said are positives stand up to any scrutiny as seen in the countless posts on the Colts thread... I urge you to read them and you'll find out why it's a non starter for most folk.

Regionalised leagues under the second tier - this is a no for me too. If we have 16 in the Premier and 10 in the Championship, there would potentially be some decent sized clubs having to play regional football (Dunfermline, Airdrie, Ayr, Partick, Morton etc have all been 27th or worse in recent memory?); there is no appetite for regional leagues at this level of football amongst fans, players or chairmen; and the geographic make up of Scotland means there will always be outliers which exaggerate things.

Atlantic (or whatever) cup - the big teams won't take it seriously as they have the proper European cups to take part in, so you are already asking other countries to join in their lot with middle ranking Scottish teams rather than the bigger names. Similarly we would end up seeing mid table foreign sides playing in it rather than the top teams. Who would be interested in say Hamilton v Stabæk? Or Halmstad v Ross County? Even if TV companies did think that would be a good investment, since they can't show games up against Champions League or Europa League games, when would they be played? The rugby comparison is a red herring - the South African teams bring in decent TV money and the club sides are basically there to produce players for the international side. The Scotland Rugby team squad is regularly made up of 10-15 players each from Edinburgh and Glasgow with some additional players from French, Irish, Welsh, English etc. teams.

I appreciate the thought you've put into this but there's a lot there that won't work I'm afraid.

[Dunfermline Don]

Two certain clubs take their colts with them and form a 4 team league playing against each other every week. I am sure they would get a great TV deal.
The rest of us have a 16 or 18 team top league playing each other twice and a second tier of 20 teams.
A competitive top flight with probably half a dozen teams starting the season thinking they could win the league.
I know it will never happen but we can always have our dreams.

[Stag Nation]

What is the logic behind a 10 club second tier? Why not 16 like all the other divisions?

Also, can we drop this "premier",  "championship" nonsense and go back to 1, 2, 3 etc?

[SecretCEO]

I'm trying to think of a way to outflank the idea that colts teams in the league will lead to better players for the Scotland national team. The present situation doesn't provide too much assistance with this task.

I wondered if there was a way to have colts teams playing competitively against first teams on a regular basis - without them being part of the pyramid. It would have to be some sort of a parallel league, but I can't figure it. 

The best possibility for player development that I could think of was to have a mandatory quota of teens in matchday first teams. Hardly original, but it may give youths the required game time at a higher level than colt teams could ever provide.

 

[Stag Nation]

21 minutes ago, SecretCEO said:

I'm trying to think of a way to outflank the idea that colts teams in the league will lead to better players for the Scotland national team. The present situation doesn't provide too much assistance with this task.

I wondered if there was a way to have colts teams playing competitively against first teams on a regular basis - without them being part of the pyramid. It would have to be some sort of a parallel league, but I can't figure it. 

The best possibility for player development that I could think of was to have a mandatory quota of teens in matchday first teams. Hardly original, but it may give youths the required game time at a higher level than colt teams could ever provide.

 

Back in the Olden Days, when Scotland had a decent team, teenagers on the way up played in the Reserve League, alongside older "borderline first team" players. It seemed to work well enough. I can't see why it couldn't work again.

[Marten]

Colt teams are seen as a quick way to fix the youth system, even though the actual issues of youth development are largely ignored in Scotland. Let's invest in coaching/facilities/structures for youth football instead. That's going to be far more effective. That's how The Netherlands for example produced so many talented players. The youth system there is integrated and well-organised across the whole country, from grassroots up to clubs like Feyenoord, PSV and Ajax. The likes of Arjen Robben and Ruud van Nistelrooij both actually came through the youth system of a tiny non-league club of a level that's roughly comparable with the very bottom of the juniors/EOS/WOS. Colt teams are the most controversial and least effective part of the entire Dutch youth structure. And they have only been around for roughly a decade so it's not like they had any effect on great Dutch generations like 1998 / 1988 / 1974.

Looking at other countries, in Germany they're despised as well and it's not universally agreed that they actually work. Spain had colt teams for many decades and were the biggest underachievers in international football until 2008.

Let's actually sort out the youth system here and forget about the stupid colts plan.

[SecretCEO]

What about if our bottom senior national division had sixteen teams, playing every opponent twice.

And if we had a non-pyramid top development league of eight teams, playing every opponent twice.

Then we asked those seniors to play each youth team once as part of their points-earning regular season. These could be eight midweek games across their season, giving the seniors a 38 game season each.

The top development teams would therefore have sixteen games each per season against senior pros, and a thirty game season each in total.

There could be a second level of development teams who would aim for promotion to that elite level. Unless perhaps the Lowland League would want to participate in something similar.

That's a bit sketchy, so maybe fits with all the changes to the league's attempts at player development and the changing faces at our national association's equivalent.

It always seemed like there were good intentions, yet I could never see the final step in their development programmes.

For me, it would be a mandatory quota of two or three Scots teens in first teams. Maybe supported by a seniors v youths pathway, as described above, which doesn't compromise the integrity of the pyramid.